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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 5, 2007 17:14:56 GMT -6
UPDATES: whp of the 4.6 swap is 235.7 @ 5723 wtq is 263.3@ 3632 no 1/4 mile times until i get good weather, but i believe its going to leave the stock and 2nd gen in the dust, DA DUST. gas mileage is unchanged for the most part. i get around 325 miles on a tank, a slight improvement over 300 a tank i guess. the dic is off 10% on the gallons used, as i ran my classic out of gas three times on purpose. the avg miles per gallon is also up a few i guess my foot doesn't have to press as hard to go as i once did. good thing i guess. WARNING WARNING WARNING: A 4.6 SWAPPED CLASSIC MAY GIVE YOU THE "BIG HEAD" MY CLASSIC HAS OUTRUN A LINCOLN MARK VIII, FROM A DEAD STOP. IT WAS MY BOSSES, ONLY 67,XXX MILES. PRESTINE CONDITION. I CHASED A 350Z DOWN THE HIGHWAY AND NEVER GOT MORE THAN TWO CAR LENGTHS BEHIND HIM. THE INDUCTION NOISE IS BANANAS, YOU WOULD SWEAR THAT THERE IS A JET ENGINE UNDER THE HOOD. THE AUTOBAHN TOP SPEED IS MORE POTENT AS I GET THERE QUICKER, SO I VANISH FROM SIGHT EASIER MAKING MY CLASSIC LOOK THAT MUCH FASTER. IT GUZZLES GAS AT FULL BORE, AGAIN ANOTHER STL TRIP REVELATION. I GOT 239 MILES TO THE TANK AT FULL BORE, BUT IT WAS A QUICK 239 MILES  OH CLASSIC CENTER CAPS DONT HANG ON TO GOOD DURING PRO-LONGED FULL SPEED BLASTS, ANOTHER STL REVELATION. I LEFT WITH FOUR AND WHEN I GOT TO THE STL I HAD NONE. PROLONGED F.S.B RESULT IN DECREASING TRANS LIFE ON THE DIC!!!!! I LEFT AT 100% AND WAS AT 97% WHEN I ARRIVED. I FIGURE THAT THE TRANS GETS HOT DURING THOSE RUNS, OR MAYBE THE SPEED CAUSES A PROGRAMMED DROP. NOW THE BAD: the added torque is hard on the engine mounts, so i suggest new mounts when you install this motor. lack of grip is a normal thing now in my classic specially in the morning on cold tires, and the rain. i see more traction active than a drift competiton. driveabilty is much improved but coming off a stop light you may wanna coast, or you will quickly be tapping the bumper in front of you, it accelerates that good.  YEAH I DID IT TWICE, SO WHAT AND YOUR PERFECT HUH??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? org post: well today i began to swap 4.6 into my classic, as i like many thers are wondering how it will work and most importantly how it will drive afterwards. if there is overwhelming demand i will post pics but i doubt if anybody will really do this themselves, and i dont blame you. so far the subframe is removed cv axles removed exhaust removed wiring harness removed a/c evacuated and compressor removed lines capped tomorrow i will be removing the drivetrain from the classic. MY ENGINE IS NOT BLOWN OR LEAKING A DROP OF ANYTHING, THIS IS PURELY A SWAP OF CURIOUSITY, AND IF ALL WORKS OUT I WILL HAVE MY ENGINE UP FOR SALE. 121,xxx miles. but if this works i would expect everyone to start using 4.6's for replacements for our aging and high mileage fleet of 4.0's. i forsee no issues with this swap, and i only worry about the possible driveabilty issues but if those arise i will lay the smack down on them also. ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by babufred on Oct 6, 2007 5:35:05 GMT -6
Good on you. By all means, make a detailed record with pics and diagrams of the swap and the final results. Also keep track of costs and hours if possible. You may be able to publish and make a few bucks. The future belongs to the brave.
Babu
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Post by 55624096 on Oct 6, 2007 11:36:11 GMT -6
Great effort, we will all watch your progress with interest.
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Post by parts68 on Oct 7, 2007 12:34:57 GMT -6
I honestly can see no problems with this once the fuel delivery issue is
licked. Even if that comes up its easy to fix.
Ive had a couple of 4.6s sitting in wings for a few years but luckily never had the need.
I did alot of research back when I acquired them and wondered at that time why no one had attempted it.
Good luck Im sure the outcome will thrill you.
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Post by Marc on Oct 7, 2007 14:54:31 GMT -6
The mechanical aspect of this swap is not hard. What I have always wondered about is how to reprogram the PCM for the 4.0 to operate the 4.6 correctly.
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 7, 2007 19:20:41 GMT -6
The mechanical aspect of this swap is not hard. What I have always wondered about is how to reprogram the PCM for the 4.0 to operate the 4.6 correctly. thats easy to say when your not turning the wrenches, and i do this everyday. well the update would be the power train is out and engine and tranny seperated. 4.0 sitting in the garage and 4.6 mounted to tranny. powertrain reintsalled into engine bay. cradle partly installed |
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Post by Superdemon on Oct 7, 2007 23:23:12 GMT -6
thats easy to say when your not turning the wrenches, and i do this everyday. well the update would be the power train is out and engine and tranny seperated. 4.0 sitting in the garage and 4.6 mounted to tranny. powertrain reintsalled into engine bay. cradle partly installed I look forward to seeing your progress in this project. Any chance we will see some numbers from a dyno after you have completed the swap? |
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 8, 2007 12:08:58 GMT -6
dyno numbers sure there is one right up the street from my house at TD performance. also known as Tire Discounter Performance, yeah they have performance shops.
the engine is installed and awaiting start up.
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phydeaux
Aurora Passenger
I keep extra bearings handy in case I can't fix it with a hammer
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Post by phydeaux on Oct 8, 2007 12:43:06 GMT -6
SpeedNeon, how do you plan on overcoming the PCM obstacle? Also, did you go in w/some beefier head bolts in case you decide to crank some serious power out of her?
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 8, 2007 13:04:36 GMT -6
SpeedNeon, how do you plan on overcoming the PCM obstacle? Also, did you go in w/some beefier head bolts in case you decide to crank some serious power out of her? no this is a stock 4.6, i protyped this swap for the rora parts interchange thread. as i promised to be as accurate as possible with that thread and there were doubts to how well this swap would work and drive everyday. i think the stock 4.6 should be good enough to kick the classic into 2007, if not i will swap in an eldorado ETC or a seville STS 300 hp 4.6. far as fuel i will turn the fuel pressure up to about 52psi and let the pcm lean it out til it reaches its programmed air/fuel ratio, which should be good for the 4.6 the increased pressure is for wot so we will see. i have yet to start the car, i got swap jitters. the same thing i had with my neon. i am going to have my cousin start it in a few hours. |
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phydeaux
Aurora Passenger
I keep extra bearings handy in case I can't fix it with a hammer
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Post by phydeaux on Oct 8, 2007 14:17:07 GMT -6
Haha. I had the same jitters with my forklift at work. Go drink some liquid courage, grab the handycam, and fire that puppy up. I feel like I speak for all of us when I say that I'm practically giddy as a school girl to finally see a 4.6 in a Rora.
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 8, 2007 19:07:02 GMT -6
its alive and running, runs GREAT, LIKE A SCALDED DOGGY.
but really its like an aurora with, more torque. and the downshift to pass is nice, very nice
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Post by austinator on Oct 8, 2007 19:45:36 GMT -6
Sweet!!! Do you have a scantool to see what the LT fuel trim is? Did you make any computer changes? Also, what year engine did you use? Congratulations...I'm very impressed!
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Post by macadamiaman on Oct 8, 2007 20:06:07 GMT -6
Anything else planned down the road? Howabout a turbo?  |
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 8, 2007 20:15:04 GMT -6
LT FUEL TRIM IS PLUS 15% AT STOCK FUEL PRESSURE
LT FUEL TRIM IS MINUS 3% AT 52 PSI
i am going to leave the fuel pressure at 52 psi.
no computer changes
engine out of a 99 eldorado, nothing to change over really except the basic mounts and nick knacks.
went very smoothly, and i did this without a rack, like most DIY'ers will here on acna.
BUT I DONT WANT ANYBODY TO GET TO EXCITED UNTIL I PUT 6000 MILES ON THIS SETUP. WHICH IS ABOUT A MONTH WITH ME.
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 8, 2007 20:18:53 GMT -6
Anything else planned down the road? Howabout a turbo? nothing else is planned for this engine except regular maintance, maybe a set of 07 injectors, but they are diff not needed. |
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Post by austinator on Oct 8, 2007 20:29:54 GMT -6
Sweet job man! That fuel trim is pretty darn nice. Do you notice torque management kicking in at all when you go WOT?
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 8, 2007 21:52:12 GMT -6
during the 1-2 shift. the 2-3 shift is normal. 2nd is pretty quick, a little trac control action, but my tires are pretty worn. 2-3 is normal, 3rd is pretty quick also. the added torque and power under the curve really pays dividends in 3rd. 3-4 is again normal, and the torqueand power under the curve again pays off as the car pulls hard to 130+ mph.
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Post by RapMastaC1 on Oct 8, 2007 22:54:30 GMT -6
Man, you just got this thread up less than a week ago and it's already done. I remember some other guy was talking about doing what you just did for over two months, one time he was boring out the cylinders and another part he was checking the camshafts... you just did the whole un-speakable thing...
How well does the DIC work with the new engine? Is it THAT much of a difference, or is it minimal, is it worth the price of the new engine is what I'm saying... I need videos and pics man!
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phydeaux
Aurora Passenger
I keep extra bearings handy in case I can't fix it with a hammer
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Post by phydeaux on Oct 9, 2007 3:26:59 GMT -6
SpeedNeon, you are officially the man. I too would like to know how the 4.6 PCM is holding up with all of the creature comforts. Was it just pretty much plug and play on the computer?
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Post by parts68 on Oct 9, 2007 6:59:50 GMT -6
He didnt change PCMs
just upped the fuel pressure to add fuel to the fire
Thats the one thing that I think would be off is the fuel consumption
monitoring,there is no flow meter in the PCM or DIC its calculated off a specific flow
at the injectors by how long the pulse is.Upping the pressure tricks the system and it thinks
its still under factory pressure.
Im sure Speed has thought of this and will do a few full tank MPG comparisons to see how far off it is.
My guess is about 10%.
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Post by aarcuda on Oct 9, 2007 11:36:15 GMT -6
so far it sounds like a good swap. whats the HP difference between the 4.0 and the 99 eldo 4.6 motor (the reported HP not actual)?
btw, I fly up to cinci often. where abouts are you? I go to Mason and stay at the sharonville HI. I might be up there this or next week if you want to grab a beer and show me the motor...
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Post by JimW on Oct 9, 2007 11:50:09 GMT -6
I'd love to see it in the car! You'll be the first here to do this swap successfully.
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 9, 2007 13:19:03 GMT -6
okay i stay in fairfield ohio. a suburb of cincinnati. anyone who is close by or who wants to come drive the car is welcome to do so. there is a definite difference between a 4.0 powered classic and the 4.6 swapped classic.
my car is excellent condition and i expect anybody who is coming to test drive the car to drop the hammer a few times, some more than others and thus will not be upset by long hard acceleration pulls. JUST PLEASE DONT WRECK HER DARN IT.
the DIC is fully functional, and believe it or not i think the car will get better gas mileage! i think its due to the fact that my foot doesnt have to press the go pedal as much to get the desired acceleration. there is that much power under the curve, as the 4.6 makes more power everywhere than the 4.0. the stock pcm has come to grips nicely with the new engine, very nicely. it has learned the air fuel ratio and is running the engine like a champ.
and even though the stock pcm does not wind the 4.6 out like the caddy pcm does, the classic is still faster and much more driveable. faster than a 2nd gen, i would dare to say so. also here is the kicker and i have not weighed both engines but i would venture to say that the 4.6 is lighter than the 4.0. because moving both powertrains the 4.0 was much heavier than when i moved the 4.6 on the same dolly.
anymore labor to swap the 4.6 than to just replace it with another 4.0. about fifteen minutes, thats all i could come up with. really, it was just that simple. plug and play. everything lined up, didnt give me a hint of trouble.
when my cousin came to start it he asked me what was the difference after he started it. i told him a different engine and he said no really whats the big deal. we took it for a spin, gentle at first. than i got in the passenger seat and told him to drop the hammer, and being a police officer he dropped it without remorse.
torque management killed the 1-2 shift, much to my dismay. but the 2nd gear was crazy, wheels chirping and traction control active. 2-3 was crisp and 3rd feels like 2nd used to with the ol 4.0. 3-4 was crisp and 4th feels a very little slower than 3rd did with the 4.0.
but on the highway she is a beast, out ran a group of crouch rockets. i guess they got scared when they saw the old beast was not stopping at 110, or 120, or 130. they backed out of the throttle and we hammered on.
so is the wap worth it, if you drive a vette ;D you may not be thrilled. but if your classic is a daily driver than yes it is. my cousin is now looking for him an aurora to swap a 4.6 into.
this swapped classic is turn key, just like from the factory. so if you wanna drive it just let me know, this is my daily driver. almost like the speed_neon in night clothes.
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 9, 2007 13:44:05 GMT -6
i have dyno time schudled this weeked coming up so stay posted for more info, and pictures ( yeah baby). lets see what this 4.6 puts to the wheels, than maybe some 1/4 mile runs to see if she is truly faster than a stock 2nd gen. than lets drop a 00-07 4.6 into a 2nd gen and see how much quicker those become?  ? any volunteers for the 2nd gen swap. |
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Post by Aurora40 on Oct 9, 2007 15:23:18 GMT -6
whats the HP difference between the 4.0 and the 99 eldo 4.6 motor (the reported HP not actual)? 25hp, and 40lb-ft. |
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Post by macadamiaman on Oct 9, 2007 15:28:21 GMT -6
You do it, and I'll volunteer |
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Post by white2002aurora on Oct 9, 2007 16:15:50 GMT -6
If I had the money I'd volunteer my 2nd gen. i'd like to check it out though I live like 20 mins if that from you. We'll have to set something up.
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 9, 2007 17:16:27 GMT -6
If I had the money I'd volunteer my 2nd gen. i'd like to check it out though I live like 20 mins if that from you. We'll have to set something up. again the door is open for test drives. if your close or feel like coming to cincinnati, feel free to come drive my classic. |
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Post by Speed Neon on Oct 9, 2007 17:17:33 GMT -6
You do it, and I'll volunteer bring car and motor and you got a deal  |
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