P0741 - TCC Performance Problem

[TJM]

www.vehicletest.state.ma.us/p0741tsb.pdf gives the reasoning and repair procedure for what I think is the problem. It's possible that a "simple" replacement of the TCC regulator valve will solve the issue. However, the bearing "rumble" I've had for the last 100k miles has been getting more noticeable and the new wheel bearings didn't fix it. I suspect it is the culmination of the entire issue in the above link but I'm not entirely sure.

So, what to do...

Do I just do the TCC regulator valve from under the car, suffer the "bearing" rumble and suck up as many miles as I can? ($60 and 2 hrs)

Do I put in for a week of vacation time and pull the tranny for the full fix per the above link? ($300? and several days)

And if my 207,000 mile tranny is out of the car, why not just replace it? ($2000+ for rebuilt or $650- salvaged and several days)

If I replace the tranny, can i go with a 3.71 if I include a PCM swap?

This is where this club is at its finest. Feedback please...

[stevensolds]

If your gonna pull the tranny (10 hrs labor) you'd better off rebuilding it or getting a new one. I doubt youd want to do the 3.71 gearing swap, it might be more trouble than its worth. Yours is a 97 too so that makes it even harder i think.

A rebuild is more towards $3000 too.

[Wacko]

I sense a cost-benefit analysis coming on. Better get to the commode fast.

I suppose you can think of it this way. If you are certain repairing or replacing the trans will get you another year at least, and your car is solid enough that you don't expect any further large repair expenditures, then even $3000 is under $300/month. Once you get past 12 months, it's a wash. But it is a calculated gamble. The week's vacation is another story.

If you go the easy route, you can still decide on a trans swap at a later date, should the bearing thingy fail completely.

I gotta think about this some more.

[TJM]

Good point Wacko - The short $$ up front may not be a bad idea.

As far as how solid my car is, I may be biased in that decision. Personally, I think it's awesome but all the pampering tends to add sentimental value I think.

Someone else from this club may look at it and say "what a crap-box", and quite possibly true compared to theirs.

[95rora]

TJ, you pose an interesting dilema. On one had you can fix the existing transmission in hopes that it will give you more trouble free mileage and on the other you can replace it with the intent of keeping the car for a very long time. Ive had to replace/rebuild two transmissions in two vehicles since Ive owned them and after it all I'm not so sure I could do it again. I think that since you take car of your vehicle the way you do, fix the bearing and the solenoid and have everything checked out. You know as well as the rest of us that these are stout transmissions and if taken care of properly will last for quite some time. I'm wishing that I would have gotten rid of my truck instead of putting in the new engine and trans cause now Im stuck with a vehicle thats rusting, needs a little bit of work as far as fuel lines and exhaust and brakes, and any potential buyers see as an old vehicle that could very well be unreliable.

Anyway, hoping that I didnt confuse you, keep it as low cost as possible at this point especially if you current trans is not falling apart.

[wutsit4]

It's a tough call, but I vote for the quick, inexpensive repair and see if she'll just keep on going. Fluids are inexpensive to replenish. Maybe a new drain hole is needed to help keep the dry parts of the transmission dry. I ran the Auto-Rx through my transmission as a last act of desperation, about 23,000 miles ago. Some serious whining for the first few miles, but all settles in as the car warms up. You hate to think about it TJM, but we are on bonus time with our cars. It gets real easy to run up incredible repair bills. If the inexpensive fix will keep you going, maybe its better to just do that. Hate to put in a trans, and then have something else fall out. I also think these transmissions are very strong and if you can get it into an operable range, the computers seem to be able to adapt to it's state of wear. Good Luck.
Keith

[stevensolds]

Yeah the PCM has a adaptive shift algorithm, that from day 1 of car ownership, computer adjusts for transmission wear so that it shifts as smoothly as it did the first day. Obviously this cant go on forever as the clutch linings will eventually be depleted enough that the trans cant run.

Keith, if your trans took a dive would you swap out for a used one? Or at this point say the hell with it and buy a new car? I cant believe you didnt have any TCC or trans problems. Thats amazing. Do you think the Auto-RX did anything?? I'd hate to put anything into an already functioning transmission at this point. The engine is one thing, but trans s completely different issue and reacts differently to new things like that.

[wutsit4]

Like I said, I did the Auto-Rx as a last act of desperation. My car was having problems in overdrive when going up an incline... it would buck, just not enough power until you feed it some gas and then it would downshift and work OK again. I put in the magic elixer like the Auto-Rx people said... drove about 1000 miles and did a complete trans oil change. Now the car was shifting hard. Called the elixer factory, and was advised to change the oil again. Did that, and then changed the trans filter and another 4 quarts. Since then, I have not messed with it, and the above problem is very infrequent now. If your trans is a happy trans, I would leave it that way. I think the Auto-Rx works great in the engine, but is a drastic and last ditch effort in a trans. That being said, it did work for me, at least for the last 23,000 miles. I can't imagine that I would replace the trans at this point. I need a whole new drive train. I need a whole new suspension. I need a new frame to attach everything to. In the mean time, this car is an amazing daily driver. I hope TJM's repair is effective.
Supporting these cars is like going to the medical specialists. Each specialist wants to keep you alive long enough to die from some other doctor's specialty.
Keith

[TJM]

ok - looks like i'll just do the regulator valve. i will take it to AAMCO for poops and giggles pricing. maybe they will have a different take or suggestion.

thanks all for your input; kinda confirms my original position. I guess in the future, if i have multiple issues like CV joints i can add it to the list of things to fix involving the tranny. already on the list are tranny mounts, both front and rear.

[TJM]

Well - I drove her to the AAMCO near my office and they had relocated so on the way back to work I noticed and Cottmans Transmissions. I mentioned the P0741 code and the manager offered a free inspection.

Turns out that the TCC is slipping he says. I tried not to smirk. He continues on this long-winded, intimidating lecture of the inner working of the transmission, pumps, valves, electronic controls... bla, bla, bla,

He brings up an ALLDATA screen and skews it from my view to ensure it will be tough for me to read. He runs down the list running right by the P0741 code to P0742 and points out some of the possibles relating to P0742 in a confusing cluster of calculated verbiage talking about the complexity of this transmission and how expensive torque converters and other parts can be. Whew, I was getting tired listening to the bull-poop but it was fun to see a pro in action.

Just above the start of the descriptives of the P0742 code was the last line of the P0741 code on his screen; "Do not replace torque converter".

Good info, too bad the manager didn't give it to me.

So, he says $595 to pull the tranny, inspect and reinstall. "But the parts you may need..." he says and continues to bring up prices for the torque converter, pump, solenoids, valves etc and my head was doing the adding. "You should not be driving this car" and "its in great shape and worth fixing", "if you leave it with me now I can have it back to you next Wednesday". LMAO, I felt like I was buying encyclopedias from a door-to-door salesman.

"I really have to think about this, thank you" and out the door I went.

[stevensolds]

Yeah man, I wouldnt go to Aamco for even a POS 1986 ford truck. My crazy friend with the tempo went there and that thing is already slipping 14k into the rebuild.

Even GM dealer would do a better job than these idiots.

Don't forget www.jasperengines.com/ either. Its only $2500 for a tranny ($600 core refundable deposit). Probably about a grand for labor, but its really not a whole lot of money if the whole car is in great shape. Hard choice my man.

[TJM]

thanx steven - still looking at the cheap valve fix with fingers crossed. there are a few lower mileage auroras in local bone yards where i can get a used tranny for around $650. a consideration that could save me a few $$ and still give me a tranny with under 70k miles.

[Wacko]

TJM, what has come of this issue?

[TJM]

<sigh>

getting worse but funny you should ask (read on) - the TCC rarely goes into lock up now and SES light is always on.

There are several issues causing this problem.

#1 is the TCC regulator valve bore that has likely become worn and allows fluid to bypass it.

#2 is stated here www.vehicletest.state.ma.us/p0741tsb.pdf where bearing surfaces are worn as well as interior seals.

The second issue, I feel, is confirmed where I do hear a bearing noise (rumble) that was still present after new hubs were installed and has progressed as the P0741 code became more persistent.

So last weekend I had the dealer do a tranny flush and filter/fluid replacement as a last-ditch-effort. Very little improvement if any. I also got a quote of just over $4000; the service manager (very cool guy) called my car "trade bait" LOL.

However, this morning on my way to work I put in some of this stuff www.lubegard.com/automotive/trans_atf.html and ran through all the gears a few times while stopped. I pulled onto the 2 lane, undivided road and took the car up to 60 mph. I couldn't believe it when I felt the TCC noticeably go into lock-up, even going up hill. 4 times in a row, on the way to the interstate, it went into lock-up as it should. I aggressively pulled onto the interstate and rounded off at 70 mph and she went into lock-up again as it should!

CAR, HEAL THYSELF! - LOL

A miracle? Dunno yet, but so far so good.

[Wacko]

That's excellent news.

I asked because I too got a P0741 just yesterday on my '01 with 63K miles. The fluid level is fine but color and odor are borderline. Not sure; could be the power of suggestion. Otherwise the transmission works great.

Glad to hear you saved yourself several thousand. Otherwise, we'd be having a local meet to work on each other's transmissions.

[TJM]

LOL - Saved myself for now and like I said, I have no idea about long term but if you just got the P0741 code then get some of that stuff. I found it at a Car Quest auto parts store in Plainville, MA.

One thing for you is that the first link above is more specific to your Aurora than mine as it states it relates to 2000-2003 Oldsmobile Auroras.

[stevensolds]

TJ, I dumped that stuff into my transmission as well about 10k miles ago, when i hadt he fluid changed. I did it as a preventative thing hoping it would get me past 100k. I'm glad it worked for you, and it was the only additive recommended for our transmission.

One thing though, did you put the entire bottle in? I only put a little more than half b/c it was overfilling.

$4k is a bit steep, i got quotes just out of curiosity from 5 different shops. The stealership i hate to say, is probably the place i would go. I saw them putting one in a first model escalade and that guy was RIPPED carrying the whole thing overtop his shoulder. They want $4915 for a brand new tranny (not rebuilt). That is a LOT of money.

[TJM]

Yes, I put in the whole bottle - it was only 10 oz and no problem with overfilling.

The 4k quote was for a "cert" tranny (certified rebuilt?) and included the recommended cooler flush as well.

GMpartsdirect has the tranny for like 3000 with shipping, so the dealer gave me a fair price at under 3100 for the part. Is 900 too much for labor? No matter.

Sorry to say that there is no way I can justify that kinda $$ with the miles the car has now.

So now it's wait-and-see how long I can go without HAVING to do something. Junkyard tranny if anything and I could probably save 2k or more if it comes to that.

[Wacko]

I hope the LubeGard stuff helps longterm for you. I'm disappointed that I've got this problem at 63K miles. What's odd is that the car is not behaving differently. At least not as far as I can tell. The fuel economy doesn't appear to be different.

I checked out the Caddy Forums. Same story. $3-4K to fix.

First thing for me to check is the brake switch as that can lock out the TCC from engaging. What is this TCC regulator valve? Do you think it would help? Can it be replaced without pulling the trans?

[TJM]

Sounds like you read most of the stuff I read Wacko.

This is the regulator valve -
www.transmissionspecialty.com/parts/parts/72854-03K.htm

Long term fix for me is already over - oh well.

The slip is tough to feel early on. But if you watch the tach while you are trying to hold a steady speed (cruise control?) while going up a slight incline. If the TCC is locked then the tach will stay relatively steady, like within 100 rpm. On mine the TCC slips and the tach rises as much as 500 rpm while the speed is steady. If torque is too much then the TCC is suppose to slip and then lock back in as torque decreases.

The TCC reg valve is behind the SIDE cover and from what I have read, on very rare occasions you can get the cover off without tranny removal. It does however require that all the mounts are loose.

Just after my car gets into closed loop, the TCC works OK. But just 5 - 10 min later, when the tranny is full hot, it stops working and slips all the time. I use to be able to keep it in lock up by babying it and watching the tach carefully, but no more.

I figure my mileage, now averaging 24.4 by Friday (all hiway during the week), is down from around 26 mpg before this issue.

Performance is absolutely fine and shifting is unaffected.

[Wacko]

Thanks for the info. I'll look into it. So now that Mission has reconsidered selling, he'll push for a GTG.

[Wacko]

TJM, I read in another thread that your CEL is off far more than it is on. For me, it has been on for 4 days straight. Strange. I may have to pull the pan and change the scavenger screens, change the fluid. Then, if it still gives me trouble drop in some Lubegard.

[TJM]

wacko said:

TJM, I read in another thread that your CEL is off far more than it is on. For me, it has been on for 4 days straight. Strange. I may have to pull the pan and change the scavenger screens, change the fluid. Then, if it still gives me trouble drop in some Lubegard.

yup - that was an older thread and the SES light had been on all the time until recently. Heck, maybe that lubegard is helping; the light was off all weeekend even with a full carload of people and luggage driving into and out of Boston. <fingers crossed>

[Wacko]

That's great news. One more question...did you clear the code manually or did it simply go off after adding the Lubegard?

[TJM]

The light simply went off like it use to -

from what I understand it takes 2 driving cycles to set or un-set the SES light for this code. That is - 2 driving cycles, both with the problem, to set the light and 2 driving cycles, both without the problem, to un-set it.

[Wacko]

In another thread, I posted that the dealer did a flush (against some folks' advice) and a fill with fresh fluid and what they termed "conditioners" and it seems to have solved the problem (temporarily). So, I'm happy for another day. When was your last fluid change or flush?

[TJM]

last change was about 8 weeks ago I guess - but back to the same on/off P0741 code.

performance is still fine but the SES light in my eyes is anoying. Where is my electrical tape?