Oil Pan/Gasket...What's the Deal?

[sall]

Alright so I know we have been here before more times than count. I was messing around with the car on ramps today de-greasing(Have some stuff called Blue Wolf, It's good stuff) trying to pinpoint where my last drops of oil are coming from. It's either the typical oil pan gasket, half case or both.

Anyways, it's not that bad(very small drop overnight), but looked closely anyways. I am pretty certain I can access all the oil pan bolts. As I had the socket on all of them making sure they were snug. The two circled here are the tightest to access. The outer most one being a 13mm and not 10mm IIRC)



I don't know how long these bolts are(30mm I think, anyone?) but all should be removable. What is to keep one from pulling the pan(sliding to the passenger side out from over exhaust crossover) once these bolts are removed?

Is the oil pickup in the way to prevent this? I need to visit the salvage yard to experiment but I feel uncomfortable with a car in the air in a sketchy way and being underneath it.

I know some of you(Nelson) have done this out of the car so what is the skinny? Maybe I am imaging things. I am not going to attempt on my car and jeopardize the current gasket.

Sorry to bring this up again but my gears were turning.

[RCA1186]

I was gonna say try it out (I practice jobs at the yard all the time haha) but I totally get you, probably not supported too well

[oldsAURORAmobile]

I found this:



Pick-up does hang pretty low.

[RCA1186]

Yeah, doesn't look like you could just slide it out :/

[sall]

Well, you would only have to slide it to the passenger side about 4" to clear the exhaust crossover. Looks like you have a third of the pan sliding room. Only speculation.

[nelson480]

I can post pics i have a bunch of them, but the trans blocks access to those 2 bolts, and yes the pickup and the main bearing/half case bolts inside there as you can see in the pic posted is what keeps it from coming out. You would literally have to take the bolts out and slide it right away, without pulling the pan down to get it past the exhuast. The exhuast pipe literally smashes into the pan.

[sall]

I was able to get socket on both of those hard to access bolts today(1/4 ratchet/extension) to see if any needed torqued down. Getting them completely out... different story, depending on length(30mm I think at least for 10mm ones). They may be too long and have interference. I have about an 1/8" clearance between crossover and pan.

[nelson480]

This is how deep the pickup pipe goes into the pan




pan removed with the pipe thoere

[sall]

The diameter of the oil pickup definitely looks too large to get the needed slide clearance from the pickup recess. Case closed lol. Thank you for the pictures! I was just wondering because I had zero problems accessing those two bolts.

I think if I ever had to do it on my car I would cut the crossover and weld a flange on each cut end. Bolt back together. Or just drop the pan that 1/8" to put a small bead of RTV in. Likely will won't worry about it as not worth compromising the current gasket. Only contemplating while de-greasing today.

[nelson480]

It would be easier to just drop the sub frame and reseal the half block also, because that contributes to the leak as well

[sall]

Oh I know mentioned it in first post. If I was going through all the trouble I'd just tear it all down and rebuild and stud. Welding a flange would be easier for me. Not happening anytime soon. I can deal with small drop of oil over night Just got the gears turning when I was easily able to access all the pan bolts.

[bobsblue95]

Well my Phoenix engine is leaking pretty badly, and I really don't feel like pulling it again and tearing the bottom apart... so I've been researching and found what should be a good temporary fix.
Permatex p/n 82099
www.permatex.com/documents/PX-0334.SpraynSeal.SS.pdf

I'll probably give this a shot soon.

[sall]

Interesting solution, Bob! I have not seen that on the shelf at local auto stores but haven't been looking for it either. How hot do you think the crossover gets?

[sall]

I was looking at reviews for that product Bob and this one caught my eye.

11 of 14 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Northstar oil pan leak, January 13, 2011
By
Bob C - See all my reviews
Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: Permatex 82099 Spray Sealant, 9 oz. (Automotive)
I bought 2 cans of Permatex 82099 Spray, to use on a Cadillac Northstar oil pan leak. The mechanic who did the work is very good, and did exactly as the direction said to do. He used a whole can the first time, but I still had the leak, so he tried again with another can, but still leaking. It was worth the try, even though many people said it wouldn't work. I will never buy another car with a Northstar engine.

Bob Carpenter
[e-mail]

Could still be their half case but I still think it is worth a shot for $9 a can. O'Reillys can order in in 24hrs. Only local store I could find who said they carried it.

[bobsblue95]

hmm interesting. As bad as mine is currently leaking, I'm sure it will be better than nothing. At least until I do pull the engine and do it right. O'Reilly's and NAPA can get the stuff, but apparently nobody stocks it.

[mjwalcott]

so heres my problem, my aurora leaks atleast a quart or two a month but it wont leak after that and it doesnt seem like it is coming from the oil pan so would the halfcase be a cause

[sall]

How many miles are you putting on it in that time? Is it leaking or are you over filling it? Proper amount of oil should be halfway up the dipstick hashes. If you are filling to MAX it's too much and burning off.

Check your valve cover gaskets? Halfcase, front crankshaft oil seal, oil pan, oil cooler lines if you have ('95-'96 few '97 models) oil filter adapter o-rings...

[mjwalcott]

you mean to tell me the maximum line is too much and ever since i got it ive been running too much oil?

[sall]

7.5 quarts with filter change. No more no less. 7.5 quarts shows on my dipstick at the half hash mark. Any extra oil even a half quart will pushed out through PCV. This is where the false oil consumption comes into play because people overfill.

[ntrenn]

This is the only car that I've seen that doesn't like to be full of oil, but I fill it anyway.
The SM procedure for excessive oil consumption is to fill the crankcase and then have the customer run it until the low oil light comes on - which is 1 quart BELOW the add mark. It goes on to say that this is still a safe oil level. If it's fewer than x miles (1000, I think), then do something about it. Otherwise tough noogies.
I may try some of that spray on stuff. Mine will make a half dozen drops on the pavement from just backing the car out of the garage, but won't lose a quart in 3000 miles of highway driving.

[sall]

I ordered two cans of it this morning at oreillys will be here tomorrow so they said. Not sure when I will clean the pan and attempt it.

[almostjaded]

Okay good, I'm not going crazy. I was starting to wonder. So there are like, 4 or 5 common oil leqaks on this thing?! C'mon GM, REALLY??!

So, since there is like, NO way to see the edges of teh valve covers in this engine bay, how do I check to see if they're leaking?

Car was dropping a little bit of oil every night since purchase. No biggie, old car. Yesterday the vlaves started clicking at me, so I added 2 quarts of Penzoil Premium, the kind that says it cleans engine sludge.

Oops.

I guess the Penzoil does what it says - and that that sludge was helping seal a couple of leaks, lol - because today, there was 1/8th quart of oil on my driveway and when I drove to the store, it was burning oil like a sonuvabitch; smoke coming from under hood (NOT out the exhaust) for a few miles before it stopped.

So I drove it home to find the source of the excess oil. I can't see crap in this bay from the top, and from the bottom all I can see is that the entire subframe - front and back and side to side, and teh entire underside of the motor, are wet with oil - and look like they have been before, too (I've only had the car a week, previous owner wasn't the loving sort it would seem).

So - was the burning from it coming down the valve covers onto the manifolds - or off the block onto the crossover? Grr. I can't tell!!!!

And am I reading this righ - in order to fix these issues, the engine has to come out?! I don't think I can do that in my garage, and I can't afford a mechanic. :-(

[sall]

Haha yeah several common locations for leaks. Get used to working in tight quarters! You can can see both valve covers where they seal from the passenger side. Most of the oil is going to seep at the bottom. I just replaced mine about two weeks ago.

And yeah engine or trans needs removed to repair oil pan because of that pesky exhaust crossover. My slight smell ceased after rear valve cover was replaced. They key to these cars is patience. Many repairs are not as difficult as many here would say. Quite a bit of info on the caddy forums too.

[ntrenn]

almostjaded - there is enough room to slip your hand behind the rear valve cover and feel for the oil. You can't see the source, but you can feel it. It's probably leaking on the passenger end of the rear cover as that bolt is really hard to get to and even harder to torque. I replaced my rear gasket about 2 years ago but still have the original front as it was not leaking.
It's not only this car that leaks oil at every split line - the resin they used for all the new controlled crush gaskets takes a set and starts to leak on every product. So far the replacements seem to be better made, but I don't have 10 years on them yet.

[almostjaded]

This is unacceptable. So I'm going to do what I always do in that instance, and fix it. I saw someone here mention welding flanges to the crossover. I'm going to look into having that manufactured - a 3-piece crossover section bolt-on with gaskets, it'd be a couple hundred dollars shipped when all is said and done, I'll try to keep it well under $200. Off to talk to my fabricator. :-)

[sall]

One flange would have to be welded on with the car present. Nothing you can buy and bolt on regardless of custom fab. You and the other flange could be welded with the piece you cut and the other end is already flanged. Search for a user named lynzoid and find his oil pan gasket thread for more pics of cutting the crossover.

Here is lynzoids thread.

aurorah.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=1stgen&action=display&thread=18358&page=1

Your flange would be welded here on the cut portion of the crossover:


Mating flange on the other cut portion. The end of newly flanged cut portion is already flanged on the opposite end:



If that made sense haha.

[almostjaded]

No, 'twas I that was unclear; I realize that one side is already flanged. I mean a new part to replace the entire post-manifolds piece, a bolt-on fix that would not require welding in-place with the car present. It would be multiple pieces. Dennis wasn't at the shop today, but this is something that is eminently doable. If it has to include the cat, so be it. While I'm at it, I wonder if headers would be worthwhile,, lmao...

Just for giggles - I'll start a thread - but what kind of interest would there be in an equal-length header design with droppable crossover, high-flow cat, and full cat-back exhaust for under $1,000? I saw what ya'll went through with teh cat-back (Corsa was it?); this would be a FULL exhaust. Maybe two options, one manifold-back and one with headers? Hmm...

[brody2be]

Sept 7, 2012 19:22:30 GMT -6 nelson480 said:

It would be easier to just drop the sub frame and reseal the half block also, because that contributes to the leak as well

How easy is it to get to the bolts closest to the transmission side? i cant even see them! and trying to get a socket on just seems impossible.

[nelson480]

You cant get to one or 2 of them IIRC

[sall]

I was able to get a socket on all of the bolts when I checked torque.