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Post by genedjr on Jun 25, 2014 10:25:45 GMT -6
First, I did look through the first 20 pages of this forum and read several places about various causes of misfire conditions. Currently I have plugs on order (from RockAuto and I printed the rebate) as I am sure the plugs are originals. This car ran fine for about 3 months after purchase. It has about 120K miles on it and had serious oil leak at the cam covers. I replaced the gaskets and that solved the leak, burning smell, and most of the drippy mess on the driveway. Here are the symptoms. - misfire code P30x - first time cyl 7 second time cyl 1
- first replaced plugs with cheapo's (yes, I am fixing that) - then replaced coil bank - fixed, but misfire returned
- Tested coil for stated cyl 1 - no spark - replaced coil pack - fixed - for 3 weeks, misfire again.
So, I am replacing the plugs with the right ones, making kid put premium gas in, using sea foam. I have not tested the coil pack yet.
While I am very new to the Aurora, I am an old shadetree mech. Can the ECM burn out the coils? Or am I just unlucky with the pack? When I tested the other coil pack, I used a standard spark tester. On the dead one no light, on another one light blinks as expected.
I have seen other cars retro fit individual coils - is there a way to do that? These pack are getting very expensive...
...gene
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jun 25, 2014 13:31:10 GMT -6
Welcome to the ACNA, Gene!
Did you inspect the plug boots and springs? If they're in good shape, it's fine to re-use them but you may want to stretch the springs a little to ensure good contact.
Yeah, the coil packs are pricey if you buy them new. If you have a Pull a Part close by, they sell them for less than $30.
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Post by genedjr on Jun 25, 2014 13:49:29 GMT -6
The boots and wires (springs) looked great and yes I stretched them a little. How much should I stretch them? And yes, we have U-Pull-N-Pay in Colorado. While I bought one cheapo from a on-line dealer, the second I got used.
I guess I am trying to figure out why the fix worked, then after only a couple of weeks seems to have failed.
Also, I noticed what I hope was dielectric grease (mostly died up) in each boot - was that from Olds or some intrepid soul? ...gene
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Post by genedjr on Sept 13, 2014 17:36:17 GMT -6
OK, the misfire saga continues. I still get random misfires but for only plugs at the firewall far right and at the grill far left according to O'Reilly's scanner. (I not sure that is significant.) Since my posting I have done the following: - Replaced the plugs
- Stretched the plug springs to make sure of good contact
- Replaced the O2 sensors
- Cleaned the throttle body.
- Replaced the front cam cover to throttle body rubber parts as they were hard and broken. (I noticed the PCV valve fits very loosely to the cam cover.)
- Inspected (read took off the looked carefully at) all of the little vacuum lines. They all look good with no cracking or visible damage.
- Tested the MAP sensor. At ~6500 ft elevation I test at 3.8v base and as power is applied the voltage goes down. I did go to the junk yard and get a MAP sensor and it tested out the same. I left the original one in.
- Tested the MAF sensor. This is the hard one. I used this site (http://easyautodiagnostics.com/gm/4.8L-5.3L-6.0L/testing-the-maf-sensor-1) as my guide. I was able to establish ground and power quite easily but the frequency was very hard to get a good connection. It seemed very intermittent. And at idle jumped around between 2.2KHz and 3.0KHz. When I sped the engine up it held as expected. Again I got a junk yard one for testing and it did about the same thing, but differently. It jumped between 3.3KHz and 2.5KHz at idle. I am concerned that the connector has issues as again it was very hard to get a back connection for the frequency.
- I unplugged the MAF sensor and ran the engine with no noticeable change. That is it still ran poorly but had even less power.
What I have not done but will tomorrow -
- Use a smoke source to check for vacuum leaks
- Test the throttle position sensor
- figure out how to test the crank position and cam position sensors
- Suggestions?
I have also thought if just going and replacing the intake manifold o-ring gaskets and the connector between the manifold and throttle body housing. But without testing for leaks I am unsure that will help.
You help and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
So far I have spent a tad over $250 (parts, tools). Not too bad, but that is about half my patience. ...gene
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Paulaurora
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Post by Paulaurora on Sept 13, 2014 20:50:50 GMT -6
for me was the Ignition control modules that was causing the misfire I had cyl 3 and 4. replaced both modules no issues .
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Post by btwnjondcy9902 on Sept 13, 2014 22:33:16 GMT -6
I had several times problem with misfire on 1G - 1999. I had to replace plugs and cables (acdelco) to fix it. Replacing plugs only did not help. Also I had to replace couple times ignition coil
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Post by boldsmobile on Sept 14, 2014 20:34:18 GMT -6
Gene, swap coils packs from side to side to see if the misfire follows the coil packs.
If they don't, do a compression test.
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Randy T.
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Post by Randy T. on Sept 15, 2014 6:16:25 GMT -6
Check your anti-backfire valve, it is behind the power steering pump in the side of the intake, look with a flashlight. There is a door, and the seal of the whole valve assembly sometimes goes bad. I doubt this is your problem, but it does not hurt to check. Use Ac delco spark plugs only, IMO do not use sea foam for anything.
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Post by genedjr on Sept 15, 2014 12:16:50 GMT -6
Gene, swap coils packs from side to side to see if the misfire follows the coil packs. If they don't, do a compression test. So the packs are not different? It's just the color? In looking at Rock Auto, they only show 1 ignition control module. ...gene
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Post by genedjr on Sept 15, 2014 12:18:39 GMT -6
Check your anti-backfire valve, it is behind the power steering pump in the side of the intake, look with a flashlight. There is a door, and the seal of the whole valve assembly sometimes goes bad. I doubt this is your problem, but it does not hurt to check. Use Ac delco spark plugs only, IMO do not use sea foam for anything. I cannot see anything in there but dirt. I did a leak test using incense smoke and did not detect any vacuum leaks. I did use the recomended ACDelco 41-987 plugs. ...gene
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Post by boldsmobile on Sept 15, 2014 14:34:57 GMT -6
Gene, swap coils packs from side to side to see if the misfire follows the coil packs. If they don't, do a compression test. So the packs are not different? It's just the color? In looking at Rock Auto, they only show 1 ignition control module. ...gene They are the same. Hopefully the issue follows the pack.
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Post by genedjr on Sept 19, 2014 17:58:51 GMT -6
OK, here are the additional tests I have run. (BTW- I got the probe recommended on easyautodiagnostics.com/)- Tested MAP = OK
- Tested MAF = OK, but frequency would not register when the ground was attached, but worked well without the ground. This was the same result with a junk yard part.)
- Tested and cleaned the EGR = OK
- Tested Throttle Position Sensor = OK
- Swapped coil packs = no change
- removed and cleaned the coil springs, dressed up coil to plug contact on coil (read sanded both)
- Cleaned springs with contact solvent
- Compression test -
- 1 - 155
- 3 - 150
- 5 - 150
- 7 - 160
- 2 - 155
- 4 - 150
- 6 - 150
- 8 - 145
All of this made no difference. The rough idle and lack of power remained. While at the junk yard, found a caddy that had the same engine and took the 4 plug boots that were just out there. So after all this I just swapped out all four boots. on the even (front) bank. I also noticed the fit was now VERY tight - a good thing. And some power returned. So maybe the whole issue is random shorting with aged shrunken plug boots.
I am off to the junk yard tomorrow for another project and will pick the other 4 up. If that provide additional improvement, I will buy a new set.
Any other suggestions? ...gene
On the bright side, I now know how to test alot of engine components.
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plato442
Aurora Driver
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Oldsmobile...
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Post by plato442 on Sept 19, 2014 19:50:32 GMT -6
I'm now unfortunately issuing a similar issue. Kind of a hiccup or a random sputter in the idle and I'm guessing thought the power band. I'm going to tear into mine this weekend hopefully and let you know what I find
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Post by btwnjondcy9902 on Sept 19, 2014 20:32:35 GMT -6
My co-worker once bought used buick regal, car was fine. He decided to make some preventive maintenance on his own. He replaced plugs & wires, filters. Car soon developed misfire. He went to few places to fix it, spent few hundred $. He claimed he got brand new cables and plugs. Nobody was able to diagnose it. Car was still on 6 months warranty and dealer agreed to replaced transmission for free. This was going on for several weeks, car had very bad misfiring. Finally in one garage his "new" cables were tested and new cables were bad. The car was fixed but after several months sadly engine refused to start. He admitted later that he got his "new" cables and plugs in used parts store.
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Post by genedjr on Sept 22, 2014 7:50:48 GMT -6
OK, here is an update. As noted I have tested/cleaned just about everything in the emissions/intake path. And as noted, on a whim, I picked up 4 plug boots from a caddy with same engine and saw improvement. So I went back and picked up the other 4 boots and WOW - not completely smooth, but the power, running, taking off from a stop is extremely better. The car is safely drivable now. It does have a consistent miss. In my examination of the boots, springs, and plugs I noticed what appears to be slight cracking of the ceramic insulation at the top of one plug. I plan on replacing that plug today. Here are the old parts laid out. Look at the third plug down on the left. After I replace the plug - I may go ahead and get a new set of boots. The bottom line here is if you get random misfire (P300 code), check the boots. They should fit very tightly requiring alot of pressure to remove and seat. If even one comes out easy - replace them first. It will save you alot of aggravation. ...gene
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Paulaurora
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Post by Paulaurora on Sept 22, 2014 18:21:01 GMT -6
Nice!
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Post by genedjr on Sept 23, 2014 12:20:33 GMT -6
OK, one last question (hopefully) - which plug boots should I get?
Right now the car runs great until it warms up then it has a misfire and significant loss of power. So with such a dramatic change putting junk yard boots on, I will spring for new ones and see if my issues are finally resolved. ...gene
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Post by awehlage on Sept 23, 2014 15:59:38 GMT -6
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plato442
Aurora Driver
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Oldsmobile...
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Post by plato442 on Sept 23, 2014 21:08:24 GMT -6
I just bought 4 Bosch 02507 boots for the rear cylinder. I'm having that intermittent sputter but no codes. I'm changing the boots and plugs in the back to see if that helps. The coil pack on the rear is relatively new of I remember correct, according to the stamped date on its underneath. Right now there's a rebate for ACDelco spark plugs!
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Post by genedjr on Sept 24, 2014 7:24:12 GMT -6
Thanks, ordered. Once they arrive and I install, I will update the thread. ...gene
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plato442
Aurora Driver
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Oldsmobile...
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Post by plato442 on Sept 25, 2014 16:04:55 GMT -6
brand new Bosch plug boots came in this morning and now waiting on the ACDelco plugs. they should be here tonight.
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Post by Toronado3800 on Sept 25, 2014 23:01:05 GMT -6
I guess 01's have plug wires so FWIW,
Once a decade back I was working on a Saturn SL1 which developed a miss. Out of the 4 plug wires 3 tested out of range for resistance. Went to Advanced Zone Auto Parts or whatever and got a new set of wires and plugs. What do you know, after changing them the car had a miss but it was different.
I wizened up and took my multi-meter to the new plug wires and found one sucked and another wasn't soo good so I put on the best of the old wires and it ran pretty decent. Went back to Zone Parts Advanced Auto or whatever and took my multi-meter to wires from two different boxes until I found two more really good ones. Right there on the counter in front of their other customers. Felt great.
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Sept 25, 2014 23:36:34 GMT -6
I guess 01's have plug wires so FWIW... Nope, coil on plug. But good for you, electrical parts can be a pain to return!
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plato442
Aurora Driver
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Oldsmobile...
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Post by plato442 on Sept 29, 2014 10:05:24 GMT -6
Thanks, ordered. Once they arrive and I install, I will update the thread. ...gene Any update?
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Post by genedjr on Oct 1, 2014 12:51:58 GMT -6
OK, plug boots arrived yesterday and i put them on today.
I noticed each boot had a different number stamped on the top. Given they are all the same part number I assume this is a manufacturing accountability code. Upon examination the junk yard boots I got were OEM and fit tight, but without date codes I have no idea how old they were. Garbage now. The new boots fit was even tighter than the junk yard ones and the old ones were loose - loose enough to rattle around. In fact i needed to use a large socket to push the new ones in place. So very tight fit.
WOW - what a difference. The new boots reduced the misfire another 95%. It still has a slight miss but its so much better. The power has returned when its at operating temp and the miss, while there, does not cause a hard shake as before. I have noticed that with the AC on and in gear at a stop I can feel the miss, but its no where near as bad.
Also - its throwing O2 low voltage bank 1 sensor 1. I am assuming that is the sensor closest to the radiator. Correct? I just bought those so I will need to figure out warranty replacement. Given everything down there is very hot when running, I am not sure how practical it would be to try and test in place with the engine at operating temp. Thoughts?
...gene
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Oct 1, 2014 13:44:26 GMT -6
...its throwing O2 low voltage bank 1 sensor 1. I am assuming that is the sensor closest to the radiator. Correct? Bank 1 is firewall side. Bank 1, Sensor 1 is the one in the exhaust manifold, it's a pain!
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Post by genedjr on Oct 1, 2014 13:47:05 GMT -6
...its throwing O2 low voltage bank 1 sensor 1. I am assuming that is the sensor closest to the radiator. Correct? Bank 1 is firewall side. Bank 1, Sensor 1 is the one in the exhaust manifold, it's a pain! Thanks - I have a O2 socket, was an easy swap for me. Now the down stream one was a pain. I had to drill out rivets to get to it. And of course, yet another tool to pop rivet it back in place. ...gene
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plato442
Aurora Driver
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Oldsmobile...
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Post by plato442 on Oct 1, 2014 17:33:26 GMT -6
I'm still getting the miss also with the back plugs and boots changed out. I ordered an ACDELCO fuel rail pressure regulator from amazon for $33. That comes in tomorrow. My old man who's a mechanic said it's the fuel pressure regulator or an injector that's intermittently sputtering.
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Oct 1, 2014 21:17:48 GMT -6
...or an injector that's intermittently sputtering. Good point. I recommend a bottle of Techron(or two) for the initial treatment and the religious use of top tier gasoline.
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plato442
Aurora Driver
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Oldsmobile...
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Post by plato442 on Oct 2, 2014 8:00:31 GMT -6
Good point. I recommend a bottle of Techron(or two) for the initial treatment and the religious use of top tier gasoline. I've added a bottle of techron injector cleaner, and still have just under half a tank. It all started a month ago when I was in Utah and gassed up there. I'll change the Fuel pressure regulator today and see if that clears it up
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