Request Help on Fuel Supply Problem

[cane87]

I had a problem when I first bought the car, where it wanted to crank and not turn over until about the sixth try. The consensus here was that it was the fuel pressure regulator. I bought one from Advance. They gave me the wrong one, so I took it back and installed the correct one. It worked perfectly for five days, then was even worse than the factory one.  Would not turn over at all no matter how I pumped the pedal.

Took that regulator out and exchanged it. Now the car starts and runs, but I still have to do the gas pedal crap. This started about two hours after the last regulator exchange. So I feel as if I wasted $45.

What's the next thing I should look at?

[genedjr]

The fuel pressure regulator is controlled by vacuum.  On start-up there is no vacuum so its really not in play unless its visibly leaking.  Playing around with the gas peddle changes the throttle position sensor and hence the pulse width for the injector allow more gas in.  Pumping will be less effective than just holding it about half way down.

Let me rephrase what I believe is happening.  You turn the key and the starter engages turning the engine over but the engine is not starting.  You do this several times and finally the engine starts.  Correct?

When you turn the car on, do you hear the fuel pump engage for a couple of seconds then turn off?  This should happen every time.

I would suggest checking the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. Check this video out - www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6NRVZ7MUPM  Contrary to his assumption on the 01 the reading should be from 48 to 55 lbs, not 30 lbs.  But you need to make sure the fuel pressure gauge/hose has all the air out or the reading will be wrong.  And of course this is gas, be careful.

If the pressure is low, change the fuel filter first.  It's amazing how many times that fixes this type of issue.  And it's like $6.

...gene

[cane87]

1. I have never heard the fuel pump turn on, as far as I know. What does it sound like?

2. I would have no idea how to check fuel pressure. If it involves buying an instrument, that is not going to happen. If I had that kind of money, I would be going to a mechanic, not DIYing.

Can anyone else help?

[cane87]

I mean really, I changed the fuel pressure regulator on the advice of people in this forum. I put a new one in on Friday and it started right up. If the FPR isn't involved, then why do the results change when I change it? I am not trying to be sarcastic, I'm trying to understand what you're talking about.

[genedjr]

For the fuel pump, you should hear a "whirring" noise for 2 to 5 seconds.  If you have ANY hearing issues, get someone to listen.  If they do not hear the pressure up phase (the 2 to 5 seconds "whirring") the fuel pump (or circuit to the fuel pump) is bad.

I understand, funds are tight.  A fuel pressure gauge is fairly cheap at Harbor Freight - www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html

Or if you are close to someone who has the tools...

I am not sure if any of the auto parts stores loan a fuel pressure checker, as it's gas and fire is a real danger.  But you can ask.

My bet at this point is a clogged fuel filter or failing fuel pump.  You need to change the fuel filter anyway - spend the $7 and replace it.  Ask for the fuel line disconnect at the parts store. And ask how to use it - its a real pain.   Then Google examples.

And if you're close to the springs - I can help.

...gene

[Randy T.]

As far as I know you do not need a special tool to disconnect the quick connect fitting on the fuel filter, you push in towards the filter with the line, squeeze the clip on both sides and slide the fuel line off. I would recommend using line wrenches on the nut side, sometimes these filters are really stuck and you don't want to strip the nuts.

[cane87]

Spent $35 for a diag yesterday. Was told it's the fuel pump. Was quoted $600. Funny funny mans, quoting a $600 repair on a $1300 car. I asked a question of the guy at the shop, and he looked at me like I had three heads. So I'll ask you guys, especially since some of you agree with him.

If the fuel pump is shot, how is it possible to drive 30 miles without interruption? Does the Aurora engine magically teleport fuel into itself? Because I've replaced the fuel pump on my Grand Prix, and that car didn't move 30 feet.

[XJSman89]

There can be varying degrees of failure. It could be in intermittent problem, or a problem with it only getting a percentage of the fuel supply that it is supposed to get. It's a crapshoot sometimes, really. I had a fuel pump that was starting to go bad and I limped it along for a number of months by giving it gas when I started it and keeping the idle up manually at stoplights. It worked for a couple months like that before it got to the point where I couldn't really limp it along anymore.

IIRC the fuel pump isn't that hard to replace, you just peel back the carpet in the trunk and there's a little access panel you remove at the top left, and then it just rotates and lifts up out of the fuel tank. (Randy, do you have any pictures of this? I know you're the fuel pump master.) I have been needing to do my fuel level sender for a while, and I think I'll just replace the entire pump. Can't hurt, right?

I wouldn't pay to have it done if you have the space to do it yourself, it's really not that bad. If you did it in your Grand Prix I'm sure you can do it in your Aurora.

[sall]

Fuel pumps can be difficult if the ring is badly rusted. Otherwise pretty straight forward, but you are crammed in the trunk. There is a video in the stickies for changing the fuel level sender that just so happens to show removing the pump too.

Part cost plus labor is likely not near $600. About $200 for an ACDelco fuel pump.


Collins with on '96 you do not really have the choice. The fuel level sender is NLA. It is not the same part as the later models. There is a part number floating around for it though somewhere here if you feel so inclined haha.

[Randy T.]

Some fuel pumps die instantly, some slowly lose pressure, but will still start and run your car, low fuel pressure makes it harder to start. Fuel pumps are easy, as long as the ring is good, like sall mentioned. I can change my fuel pump in 20 minutes.

[XJSman89]

Nov 18, 2014 15:08:36 GMT -6 sall said:

Collins with on '96 you do not really have the choice. The fuel level sender is NLA. It is not the same part as the later models. There is a part number floating around for it though somewhere here if you feel so inclined haha.

Good to know. Maybe I'll wait a little bit, since the price of a Delphi pump for a 96 is $250.

Any luck with your situation, Cane87?

[sall]

Nov 19, 2014 8:49:13 GMT -6 XJSman89 said:

Nov 18, 2014 15:08:36 GMT -6 sall said:

Collins with on '96 you do not really have the choice. The fuel level sender is NLA. It is not the same part as the later models. There is a part number floating around for it though somewhere here if you feel so inclined haha.

Good to know. Maybe I'll wait a little bit, since the price of a Delphi pump for a 96 is $250.

Any luck with your situation, Cane87?

www.ebay.com/itm/New-Delphi-FG0008-Fuel-Pump-Module-for-Buick-Oldsmobile-/171286945918?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27e17f607e&vxp=mtr

[cane87]

Sail, I can scan and send you the estimate if you'd like, and this is from a local shop recommended by the BBB and Yelp, not a stealership. Second opinion is $450.

Collins, I didn't do it in my Grand Prix, I paid someone. Those were the good old days of more income. I DIY from necessity, not because I enjoy it.

Everyone else, thanks for the info, I'll look at the video in the stickie and decide where to go from there. I'll keep you posted.

[genedjr]

Also note that if the sending unit is good, the pump only can be had for $46 + shipping.  Some kits include the mesh filters and new o-ring.  I would get a new o-ring either way.

I did this to my PU and it has had no issue for over 2 years.




...gene

[cane87]

Sail, I have an 01, not a Classic.

[sall]

I know. That's why I quoted xjsman. The link was for him.

Also, I was only meaning the quote was high. I'd do them all day long for $400 labor. Those kits like gene posted are nice if you can find the right one! I know some have had difficulty finding them for the Classic(that actually fit). No clue about the 2G.

[cane87]

The lock ring will not move, no matter how I pound at it. And there is not a bit of visible rust on it. A removal tool is available online for $31, which does me no good as I have a job interview at 11 am tomorrow. So given that there's some urgency here, for those of you who've succeeded with this repair, what's your secret?

Thanks in advance.

[XJSman89]

I've never done it, but Randy might be able to help. It would certainly be easier to remove with the tool since you would be able to grab and turn all 5 points at once. Moving only one or two will make it bind. The only advice I would have would be to try and twist it on opposite sides at once, if you haven't already. Maybe a pair of pliers with a wide reach or something of the like. Sorry I can't be more helpful!

[genedjr]

humm, I have replaced many and never needed a special tool.  Can you take  picture?  I know this does not help with an interview today. Sorry.
...gene

[cane87]

Borrowed the tool from AutoZone. The ring still will not move. The wrench flies off without moving it one millimeter.

This is the worst vehicle I've ever owned. My Plymouth even started and ran once after the engine blew. More than I can say for this piece of *******. If anyone wants to buy it, please PM me in the next 24 hours. After that, I'm deleting my account and it goes to the junkyard.

And thanks everyone for trying to help.

[XJSman89]

Sorry to hear that. I would consider it if it were closer, but being in Florida and all, it just wouldn't make financial sense.

I know the rings are interchangeable (or at least replaceable, Randy has a few extras that I know of) so you could potentially cut the tabs with a cutting wheel (or a dremel multimax might be safer, less sparks near the fuel tank and easier to control) and take it out that way as long as you don't get into the tabs on the car, but if you're done working on it I understand that too. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

[plato442]

Nov 26, 2014 8:21:48 GMT -6 cane87 said:

After that, I'm deleting my account and it goes to the junkyard.

How's that working out for ya?

[sall]

Sour grapes.

[phydeaux]

Dirt as well as rust will be your enemy on the lock ring as well. Used some sort of compressed air to clear as much dirt from the ring as possible. After that, soak the ring with WD-40 for an hour. After an hour, spray more WD-40 and use compressed air to force it under and around the ring. There is a big fat o-ring under the metal retaining ring. You want to soften and lubricate the o-ring in order to get it to move. It will come loose, just be patient. And for the love of everything good and holy, don't put an Airtex pump in there. I know they are cheap but you'll be doing this job again in no time. Ask me how I know...

[plato442]

Yes, I second that! No airtex crap! Did one in my truck last year. I had to replace it on the spot at 10pm, December weather was 8 degrees and Autozone was the only place open and sold an airtex off the shelf. 3 months later it died. I returned it, ordered oem from rockauto and no issues since!

I'm looking at ordering an oem fuel pump for my aurora on amazon and now they have a manufacturers 20% off discount at check out!

[RCA1186]

I'll THIRD that on the Airtex pump, I put one in my last Aurora (it needed the sending unit so I just decided to put in the whole pump it was $99! and after installing it I could see why). I got it in and started it and the whine of the pump could be heard over my straight pipes, it was utterly ridiculous. I did not trust that thing to drive me 10ft, I took it out and just leached the sending unit off of it to put on my stock pump haha.

[buck91]

Nov 23, 2014 16:48:17 GMT -6 cane87 said:

The lock ring will not move, no matter how I pound at it. And there is not a bit of visible rust on it. A removal tool is available online for $31, which does me no good as I have a job interview at 11 am tomorrow. So given that there's some urgency here, for those of you who've succeeded with this repair, what's your secret?

Thanks in advance.

When I replaced the sender arms my lock ring was horribly frozen also. A little bit of penetrating oil, a punch and a hammer. Ear protection. And lots of patience.... It'll move eventually. I put some waterproof grease on when reinstalling to make any future repairs easier.