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Post by lottj88 on Jun 30, 2015 10:26:49 GMT -6
I have a 2001 aurora 4.0 and yesterday after I put gas in my car I drive it home and when o turned it off it wouldn't start up again I tried getting a jump but that didn't work everything still works in the car like the radio and dash lights but it won't start and the crazy thing is when I take the key from out of the ignition you can still here the fuel pump running and the headlights stay on without the key being in the ignition and also it said something about theft system on the dic display
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Post by jummama on Jun 30, 2015 10:57:04 GMT -6
Welcome to ACNA! Too bad it isn't under better circumstances!
Sounds to me like a bad ignition switch. The theft system uses electrical contacts to the key to read the value of a resistor in the key, so it would make sense that a bad switch may cause that problem. It would also stop the car from starting. There are a few threads here in the forums on how to disable VATS (vehicle anti theft system) with a bypass resistor hard wired in which may allow the car to start, but given the way it's acting with the key off, that would be temporary at best.
As a cheap solution, you may try spraying some electronic contact cleaner into the key hole, and turn the key back and forth a few times, then give it 10 minutes or so to evaporate. I would disconnect the battery first though.
Good luck!
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Post by wfooshee on Jun 30, 2015 11:56:27 GMT -6
Periods and caps are useful. Don't make people assume they know where sentences are!
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Post by lottj88 on Jun 30, 2015 12:37:45 GMT -6
Ok thanks I will try it
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tigger
Administrator 
Posts: 2,844 
Staff Member
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Post by tigger on Jun 30, 2015 13:53:07 GMT -6
No resistors in 2G keys. PASSkey III uses RFID.
Do you have / have you tried a different key?
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Post by lottj88 on Jun 30, 2015 14:09:47 GMT -6
No I only have one key
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tigger
Administrator
Posts: 2,844
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Post by tigger on Jun 30, 2015 19:11:05 GMT -6
Is your security light on?
Anti-theft activation should shut down the fuel pump.
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Post by lottj88 on Jun 30, 2015 19:44:31 GMT -6
Yes the security light is on, as well is the brake light
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Post by jummama on Jun 30, 2015 21:32:12 GMT -6
No resistors in 2G keys. PASSkey III uses RFID. Do you have / have you tried a different key? I did a bit more reading about it, and it seems that it's not RFID, but it's also not the resistor I was mentioning either. PK3 is a hall effect sensor which is read by resistance to decide weather everything is ok. That said, I'm not so sure that the electronics spray would have any hope of fixing it, but it still shouldn't hurt. This being the case, I wonder if the VATS relearn procedure would help here? I also wonder if magnets getting close to the key would screw up the magnetism and cause VATS to freak out and not start the car. I'd still be concerned about the ignition switch based on the original description of the problem, where the lights are still on after removing the key. I recall there being a thread about how to do a VATS relearn here on ACNA, but I can't seem to find it. I did find a guide on ehow. I believe there is also a 4 minute timeout any time the VATS system gets tripped, so if you do anything else that may fix the issue, wait 4 minutes after the last start attempt before trying again, or you will run into the same problem, even if the problem has been fixed. The fuel pump running at all in this situation seems strange to me... lottj88, are you sure you're not just hearing the electronic level control air compressor coming on 2 or 3 seconds after going to key on engine off? In my 2002 4.0, I don't recall ever really being able to hear the fuel pump, but that ELC pump is a very obvious sound, and I could see someone confusing it for a fuel pump. |
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 1, 2015 6:55:55 GMT -6
Yes I am sure I had my mechanic look at it and when he pulled the spark plug for the fuel pump it shut off I think it may be the ignition switch
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jul 1, 2015 20:58:21 GMT -6
No resistors in 2G keys. PASSkey III uses RFID. I did a bit more reading about it, and it seems that it's not RFID, but it's also not the resistor I was mentioning either. PK3 is a hall effect sensor which is read by resistance to decide weather everything is ok... No, man! That's PassLOCK! Passlock – coded lock cylinder The Passlock anti-theft system requires the presence of a key in the lock cylinder to enable starting. The lock cylinder contains a stationary Hall effect sensor and a rotating magnet. When the key is turned in the lock cylinder, the magnet creates a signal on the Hall effect sensor. The cylinder then sends a coded signal to the instrument panel cluster (IPC) or body control module BCM. If the IPC/BCM receives the expected coded signal, the IPC/BCM will send a message over serial data to inform the PCM that the vehicle may be started. Passkey III – transponder ignition key The Passkey III anti-theft system uses a transponder inside the head of the ignition key. The exciter inside the ignition lock cylinder energizes this transponder when the ignition switch is turned on. The transponder transmits a unique signature to the theft deterrent control module. If the key signature transmitted is acceptable to the theft deterrent control module, the theft deterrent control module will transmit fuel enable password to the PCM. If the fuel enable password is correct, the PCM will start the vehicle. PK3 is RF... |
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Post by jummama on Jul 1, 2015 21:40:37 GMT -6
I did a bit more reading about it, and it seems that it's not RFID, but it's also not the resistor I was mentioning either. PK3 is a hall effect sensor which is read by resistance to decide weather everything is ok... No, man! That's PassLOCK!... Fair enough, you seem to have a better source of info on it than I. The naming is confusing enough that I found places that describe PassLock and call it PassKey III. I didn't think RFID was a thing yet in the early 00s either. Would you happen to have any diagrams of the inside of the ignition switch/cylinder? I'm wondering how feasible it would be to repair it instead of replacing it. |
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 2, 2015 7:45:30 GMT -6
Yes I went to try to start it yesterday by leaving the key in the ignition for almost a hour and still nothing on dic it just says theft fault system and my gas gauge doesn't work and the brake light,security lights,abs, and check engine lights our all on
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 2, 2015 7:49:47 GMT -6
Pass lock... I'm sorry but I'm confused, I'm new to this, so how do I disable the pass lock I have the pk3 key which is the one I've been using
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Post by jummama on Jul 2, 2015 11:54:52 GMT -6
Sorry for the PassLock/PassKey confusion. All second gen Auroras use PassKey III. As for disabling that, I'm not sure there's a good way to do that short of getting a remote start kit, or a MadTuners ECU tune with VATS disabled in it. Perhaps it could be done by bypassing the security relay, but that could cause issues of its own (maybe someone else can chime in on that). That said, even if you bypass it, the headlights staying on with the key turned fully off and removed tells me that you'll likely run into problems with it later even if you get PK3 out of the picture.
Your best bet is probably going to be to replace the ignition switch, which isn't exactly an easy job, as a large portion of the dash has to come apart, and I believe the steering wheel has to come off.
Good luck!
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Post by jummama on Jul 2, 2015 12:05:10 GMT -6
After posting this, I just realized, if I have my headlights in the forced on position, they will stay on with the key removed. In the Auto position however, the lights turn off with the key. Could you confirm which position your headlight switch is in? If the headlights are in the on position instead of auto, check what happens in auto. If the lights turn off in auto, then the switch may be totally fine, but the transponder itself is broken or has a bad connection. If that's the case, finding a way to disable PK3 may actually be a good way to fix it, and would be cheaper than replacing the ignition switch. A MadTuners ECU would be around 300 bucks, and can be replaced quite easily by swapping it out from inside the air box I believe, though there may be a cheaper way to JUST disable PK3 instead of going with a full reprogrammed ECU.
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98redaurora
Aurora Driver
This is not your fathers Oldsmobile.
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Post by 98redaurora on Jul 2, 2015 13:53:41 GMT -6
Hey man.
Can you post a video and show us what your car is doing? It is much easier to help you out with a video.
2G people. With the key in the run position engine off, does the security light eventually go out.
OP, does your light ever go out key on engine off?
I haven't heard of passkey III systems failing. They seem to be more reliable them passkey II in the first gens.
98redaurora.
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jul 2, 2015 14:37:34 GMT -6
Have you tried doing a relearn? To perform a relearn on a Passkey III system, make sure there is a fully charged battery in the vehicle. The battery will be used for 30 minutes without the alternator available for charging. When performing this relearn, all previously learned keys will be erased. Additional keys may be relearned immediately after the first key has been learned. - Insert a master key (black head) into the ignition switch.
- Turn key to the “ON” position without starting the engine. Security light should turn on and
stay on. - Wait for 10 minutes or until the security light turns off.
- Turn key to the “OFF” position for 5 seconds.
- Turn key to the “ON” position without starting the engine. Security light should turn on and
stay on. - Wait for 10 minutes or until the security light turns off.
- Turn key to the “OFF” position for 5 seconds.
- Turn key to the “ON” position without starting the engine. Security light should turn on and
stay on. - Wait for 10 minutes or until the security light turns off.
- Turn key to the “OFF” position. The key transponder information will be learned on the next
start cycle. - Start the vehicle. If the vehicle starts and runs normally, the relearn is complete.
If additional keys need to be relearned: - Turn the key to the “OFF” position.
- Insert the next key to be learned. Turn the key to the “ON” position within 10 seconds of
removing the previously used key. - Wait for security light to turn off. It should happen fairly quickly. You may not notice the
lamp, as the transponder value will be learned immediately.
Repeat for any additional keys. |
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jul 2, 2015 14:42:05 GMT -6
Would you happen to have any diagrams of the inside of the ignition switch/cylinder? I'm wondering how feasible it would be to repair it instead of replacing it. I can check the manual, but I doubt it. Probably classified "unserviceable". |
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 2, 2015 15:25:16 GMT -6
Yes I can post a video, but how do i do it
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 2, 2015 16:35:29 GMT -6
Would you happen to have any diagrams of the inside of the ignition switch/cylinder? I'm wondering how feasible it would be to repair it instead of replacing it. I can check the manual, but I doubt it. Probably classified "unserviceable". I tried this and it still didn't work |
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 2, 2015 16:39:07 GMT -6
Have you tried doing a relearn? To perform a relearn on a Passkey III system, make sure there is a fully charged battery in the vehicle. The battery will be used for 30 minutes without the alternator available for charging. When performing this relearn, all previously learned keys will be erased. Additional keys may be relearned immediately after the first key has been learned. - Insert a master key (black head) into the ignition switch.
- Turn key to the “ON” position without starting the engine. Security light should turn on and
stay on. - Wait for 10 minutes or until the security light turns off.
- Turn key to the “OFF” position for 5 seconds.
- Turn key to the “ON” position without starting the engine. Security light should turn on and
stay on. - Wait for 10 minutes or until the security light turns off.
- Turn key to the “OFF” position for 5 seconds.
- Turn key to the “ON” position without starting the engine. Security light should turn on and
stay on. - Wait for 10 minutes or until the security light turns off.
- Turn key to the “OFF” position. The key transponder information will be learned on the next
start cycle. - Start the vehicle. If the vehicle starts and runs normally, the relearn is complete.
If additional keys need to be relearned: - Turn the key to the “OFF” position.
- Insert the next key to be learned. Turn the key to the “ON” position within 10 seconds of
removing the previously used key. - Wait for security light to turn off. It should happen fairly quickly. You may not notice the
lamp, as the transponder value will be learned immediately.
Repeat for any additional keys. [ Yes I tried this and it didn't work, I left the key on there for about 30 minutes and the security light never went off |
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Post by jummama on Jul 2, 2015 17:01:43 GMT -6
Yes I tried this and it didn't work, I left the key on there for about 30 minutes and the security light never went off Perhaps this is an issue with the theft deterrent module? I'm not sure if that part can throw any codes that would help narrow it down, and I also don't know if such codes would be visible with the scan tools available at the parts store for rental. That said, if one of our service manual wielding brethren can show where the module is at, electronic contact cleaner on the plugs may help if this is the problem. |
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Post by jummama on Jul 2, 2015 17:02:18 GMT -6
Yes I can post a video, but how do i do it I don't think there's any video hosting on this site, but if you post a video on YouTube and link it here, that would work. |
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tigger
Administrator
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Staff Member
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Post by tigger on Jul 2, 2015 23:55:29 GMT -6
Just a couple items for your perusal;     From the info above, sounds like you have a bad key or a bad exciter. Really need a Tech 2 to determine which one though. HTH |
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 3, 2015 0:34:11 GMT -6
Yes I can post a video, but how do i do it I don't think there's any video hosting on this site, but if you post a video on YouTube and link it here, that would work. I will do this first thing tomorrow |
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 3, 2015 0:35:21 GMT -6
Just a couple items for your perusal; From the info above, sounds like you have a bad key or a bad exciter. Really need a Tech 2 to determine which one though. HTH I hope it's a bad but we're can I go get a new key made that's a pk3 as well |
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 3, 2015 0:36:11 GMT -6
Yes I tried this and it didn't work, I left the key on there for about 30 minutes and the security light never went off Perhaps this is an issue with the theft deterrent module? I'm not sure if that part can throw any codes that would help narrow it down, and I also don't know if such codes would be visible with the scan tools available at the parts store for rental. That said, if one of our service manual wielding brethren can show where the module is at, electronic contact cleaner on the plugs may help if this is the problem. I am going to post a video just so you guys can see the problem |
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Post by jummama on Jul 3, 2015 10:54:20 GMT -6
I hope it's a bad but we're can I go get a new key made that's a pk3 as well Any GM dealer should be able to do that, though you're probably going to end up with a GM logo key instead of an Aurora logo. Many locksmiths would be able to as well, just ask them about PassKey 3, and they would probably charge less than a dealer. |
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Post by lottj88 on Jul 3, 2015 11:25:03 GMT -6
I hope it's a bad but we're can I go get a new key made that's a pk3 as well Any GM dealer should be able to do that, though you're probably going to end up with a GM logo key instead of an Aurora logo. Many locksmiths would be able to as well, just ask them about PassKey 3, and they would probably charge less than a dealer. Ok so would buying a new key be the same as reprogramming the old key |
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