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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 15, 2016 8:11:20 GMT -6
Hey everyone,
I've been experiencing a weird problem recently where I'll try to start my car (doesn't matter if the engine is cold/hot), but when I insert the key and attempt to turn it, it rotates about .5 mm and immediately just sticks there. I can wiggle it back and forth those .5 mm, but I'll just have to keep putting it in and out of the keyhole until it rotates properly and turns over. I know 2Gs don't have a steering wheel lock, which I found is the most common cause of my problem, so I can rule that out. The extra weird thing is that when this happens, right on the first time it sticks, my car's electronics all turn on (stereo, radar detector) like I turned the key to the "ON" position, but not all the way until the engine started.
This morning was even worse, when after finally getting the key to turn, my engine would sputter and seem to idle out within a second or two of "starting." After a few attempts about 15 seconds apart I finally got it to start with some gas applied. I should also mention that a few days ago I thought I smelled a fuel smell from outside the car (not in the cabin), but found no puddle or anything beneath the car. I haven't smelled it since a few days ago. Could these maybe be connected? Not enough fuel pressure to start engine without applying gas? Fuel pump acting up/leaking?
Thanks in advance
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Post by sall on Jan 15, 2016 8:56:33 GMT -6
The 2G doesn't have a steering wheel lock? I could of swore that was hurdle awehlage had when trying to install a push button start in the 2G.
First thing.... have you tried a different key? They do wear out.
Anyways, if that doesn't work sounds like two separate issues perhaps. Ignition cylinder or switch causing the binding. Hard starts once the ignition works could be attributed to fuel pressure, but that could be caused by the pump not priming from a faulty ignition switch. Just some thoughts! I'm obviously not a 2G guy but try to help haha.
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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 15, 2016 9:54:06 GMT -6
The 2G doesn't have a steering wheel lock? I could of swore that was hurdle awehlage had when trying to install a push button start in the 2G. First thing.... have you tried a different key? They do wear out. Anyways, if that doesn't work sounds like two separate issues perhaps. Ignition cylinder or switch causing the binding. Hard starts once the ignition works could be attributed to fuel pressure, but that could be caused by the pump not priming from a faulty ignition switch. Just some thoughts! I'm obviously not a 2G guy but try to help haha. Absolutely, I appreciate the help regardless. I do have a valet key somewhere that I will try for sure, but the sticking problem is random at best so it might not be the most accurate experiment. I guess I could swap the keys and use the valet indefinitely until I run into a problem. Roger that on the possible fuel pump not priming due to a faulty ignition switch and that the two issues could be related. I'm just paranoid since you should never be smelling a fuel smell anywhere or anytime unless you just filled up, so I'll be keeping a close eye/nose on that. And what's this about the steering wheel lock? I must've missed that thread haha I've seen others say that it doesn't have one and I can certainly muscle the wheel around with the car off. It's just the shifter that's locked with the ignition off |
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RCA1186
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Post by RCA1186 on Jan 15, 2016 11:51:04 GMT -6
I was thinking bad ignition switch/cylinder too. Perhaps its even not even staying in position and ever so slightly vibrating to the point where its cutting power to the engine and then giving it back in really quick cycles, although I don't know if that would explain why giving it gas kept it running.
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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 15, 2016 12:30:28 GMT -6
I was thinking bad ignition switch/cylinder too. Perhaps its even not even staying in position and ever so slightly vibrating to the point where its cutting power to the engine and then giving it back in really quick cycles, although I don't know if that would explain why giving it gas kept it running. Thanks for the reply and opinions. Me giving it gas was probably more of a way to start it in the first place, rather than "keeping it running." The time before I tried doing that the engine seemed to start for maybe a second before it felt like it idled out (all electronics were still on but that doesn't really give any clues). I did use the valet key when I went to lunch today though, and that worked first try. Maybe just the right conditions or it's my original key wearing out, but that shouldn't explain the rough starts and fuel smell issue either |
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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 15, 2016 18:05:05 GMT -6
Well it's not the key that's the problem. The very next time I tried to start it up the valet key stuck the same way. Only turns over after inserting it/flipping it over and over again until it either "sits" right or something else happens. Any way I can check myself if it's the ignition switch/cylinder?
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Post by sall on Jan 15, 2016 19:13:31 GMT -6
You could probably separate the tumbler and the actual ignition switch. See if one binds without the other.
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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 16, 2016 13:40:49 GMT -6
Interesting update: I finally got a OBDII scanner and got the following codes:
P0440 - Powertrain - Evaporative Emission Control System
P0442 - Powertrain - Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak)
P0410 (Pending Fault) - Powertain - Secondary Air Injection System
From my research I've found that P0440 and P0442 are closely related and caused by a general loss in pressure in the evap system from bad hoses or even a bad gas cap. I've also read on another thread on here that it could be caused by fuel "overfilling" due to a part that doesn't tell the fuel nozzle when it's full. This really intrigues me since the first time I smelled fuel from the outside of the car after driving was the day after I filled up.
So now I have hard starting, needing to apply gas in the first 0-1 seconds of starting the engine to keep it running, fuel smell from outside the car (although I don't smell it anymore), and apparent leaking in the evap system which is causing a drop in fuel pressure. Using my limited knowledge can I assume correctly that these are all very related and can be fixed by finding the leak in fuel pressure?
Aside from this, I didn't find too much info on the P0410 code but won't worry about it too much since it's pending.
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Post by Hurricane87 on Jan 16, 2016 18:52:11 GMT -6
The P0410 isn't the problem here. I've been living with that almost since I had my car, and my mechanic confirms it causes no performance issues whatever.
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mrn65
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Post by mrn65 on Jan 16, 2016 21:04:26 GMT -6
Before you take anything apart, first try some "key graphite", it's a powder lock lubricant & that will probably take care of ur issues. Also, u may consider ur key may have "dropped" its electronic code.
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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 17, 2016 10:09:47 GMT -6
The P0410 isn't the problem here. I've been living with that almost since I had my car, and my mechanic confirms it causes no performance issues whatever. Haha thanks for that insight; I wasn't too worried about it as I said but good to know it's at least common and isn't a big deal. Before you take anything apart, first try some "key graphite", it's a powder lock lubricant & that will probably take care of ur issues. Also, u may consider ur key may have "dropped" its electronic code. I'll definitely look into that key graphite stuff. I have a strong feeling it's not the key that's the problem, though, since my valet key did the same exact thing. Unless they both happened to drop their electronic code at the same time haha |
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Paulaurora
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Post by Paulaurora on Jan 17, 2016 10:28:58 GMT -6
not fixing The P0410 for long time can kill ur CAT faster. and for other codes i would start with gas cap. you can watch this video as well to get you an idea what can leak www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfj-F_pTj5M |
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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 17, 2016 11:11:42 GMT -6
not fixing The P0410 for long time can kill ur CAT faster. and for other codes i would start with gas cap. you can watch this video as well to get you an idea what can leak www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfj-F_pTj5MI did actually get a flashing check engine light a few days ago, which I know usually means a detected misfire but could also be impending catalytic converter damage. So perhaps that's related as well? Like maybe the cat recognizes the engine is running too lean with the drop in fuel pressure immediately upon startup? I didn't get any misfire codes when I scan the OBDII port so I definitely if it continues to flash I will have to get that checked out. Thanks a ton for that video on the evap system. I actually have had a replacement gas cap for over 6 years (someone literally stole mine when my gas lid wouldn't close all the way) and I've read in threads here that people always start with replacing it and they always say it didn't work. I've obviously checked the gas cap and it's nice and secured on the neck. |
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Post by sall on Jan 17, 2016 11:34:46 GMT -6
The graphite can help lube the tumblers in the ignition cylinder. It may help with the sticking/binding. I have never used it in an actual key/lock cylinder, only for lube on a pinewood derby car about 25 years ago  www.lowes.com/pd_34006-37672-703185___?productId=1244381&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1&Ntt=graphiteFlashing SES is multiple random misfires. Will ruin the cat due to unburned fuel. Do you have a scanner to check your fuel trims? You may be running lean because of low fuel pressure. This will show up as high fuel trim. Which is going to give you hard cold starts as there is not proper fuel enrichment. You can check with a fuel pressure gauge as well, but I don't know he 3.5L specs for fuel pressure. |
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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 17, 2016 12:18:38 GMT -6
The graphite can help lube the tumblers in the ignition cylinder. It may help with the sticking/binding. I have never used it in an actual key/lock cylinder, only for lube on a pinewood derby car about 25 years ago www.lowes.com/pd_34006-37672-703185___?productId=1244381&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1&Ntt=graphiteFlashing SES is multiple random misfires. Will ruin the cat due to unburned fuel. Do you have a scanner to check your fuel trims? You may be running lean because of low fuel pressure. This will show up as high fuel trim. Which is going to give you hard cold starts as there is not proper fuel enrichment. You can check with a fuel pressure gauge as well, but I don't know he 3.5L specs for fuel pressure. Thanks for that link sall; I'll definitely go to a hardware store today and try it out. Unfortunately I don't have the ability to scan for that, but I can see that it's a very good possibility that I'm running lean and having cold starts because of what you described. Also could the cold weather be a factor in this? Wind chill this morning was -5 which is when it started the worse. |
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Post by sall on Jan 17, 2016 12:30:08 GMT -6
More fuel enrichment is needed when the temperature is cold, yes.
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jan 17, 2016 23:41:16 GMT -6
...never used it in an actual key/lock cylinder, only for lube on a pinewood derby car about 25 years ago |
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jan 17, 2016 23:46:09 GMT -6
Dan Wogan, wiggle the shifter(in park)/hard on brake, same principle as the steering lock. Cable may need adjustment...
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AuroraNoobie
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2001 3.5l 90k origional miles, second owner
Posts: 19
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Post by AuroraNoobie on Jan 19, 2016 9:13:51 GMT -6
if you have a lot of stuff on your key chain set that adds up to a lot of weight(or maybe previous owner?), simply driving the car for some time will stress out the switch over time..
might be your problem with the switch might not, basically it will flex the tumblers in the switch constantly until it takes on a new form, a form of which the key is not cut for.
i always smile when i see teenie boppers pull out a huge wad of keys on their key rings.
good luck and let us know
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Post by Dan Wogan on Jan 19, 2016 16:33:57 GMT -6
Dan Wogan , wiggle the shifter(in park)/hard on brake, same principle as the steering lock. Cable may need adjustment... Hey! This works! I need to insert the key first, but after I do I just step on the brake and wiggle the shifter a bit and it turns every time. I also added some of that dry graphite lubricant so maybe that helped as well. if you have a lot of stuff on your key chain set that adds up to a lot of weight(or maybe previous owner?), simply driving the car for some time will stress out the switch over time.. Thanks for the reply. I've only ever had like 2 or 3 keys max on my keyring (it's separate from my work/home keyring) so I don't think that's the problem haha As for the evap system codes, the engine's been starting every time the last 5 or 6 times so perhaps it was the cold weather preventing fuel enrichment as sall said. I give it just a tiny bit of gas when I turn er over and starts every time. There's definitely a small leak in the evap system but the drop in pressure was probably worsened by the cold weather. So maybe I'll wait for warmer weather to crawl under it and spot check everything. Thanks again for all the replies guys! |
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Post by sall on Jan 19, 2016 18:20:01 GMT -6
Dan Wogan, wiggle the shifter(in park)/hard on brake, same principle as the steering lock. Cable may need adjustment... I had same problem in our Mercury Mountaineer. Except the issue was in a bracket with backed out bolts for the shifter. |
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jan 22, 2016 23:27:43 GMT -6
Dan Wogan, wiggle the shifter(in park)/hard on brake, same principle as the steering lock. Cable may need adjustment... I had same problem in our Mercury Mountaineer. Except the issue was in a bracket with backed out bolts for the shifter. Haha, my Dad had it on his Exploder. After the fix, the trans picked up a shudder, he dropped it like a hot rock, lol! |
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Post by sall on Jan 28, 2016 18:26:01 GMT -6
Other than tune-ups and normal wear and tear suspension/tires we have had pretty good luck with it. It has the 5.0L/AWD.
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jan 29, 2016 1:07:32 GMT -6
Dan Wogan , wiggle the shifter(in park)/hard on brake, same principle as the steering lock. Cable may need adjustment... Hey! This works! Glad to hear! Only a band-aid though... Other than tune-ups and normal wear and tear suspension/tires we have had pretty good luck with it. It has the 5.0L/AWD. Oh yeah, 1st gen Mountaineer!  Had my eye on a '98 black on black 5.0/AWD back around '02-'03, couldn't pull the trigger though ($$$), lol! Dad's was a '99(?) EB 5.0/4WD, probably nothing seriously wrong with it, but he was no DIYer by any means, haha... |
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Had my eye on a '98 black on black 5.0/AWD back around '02-'03, couldn't pull the trigger though ($$$), lol! Dad's was a '99(?) EB 5.0/4WD, probably nothing seriously wrong with it, but he was no DIYer by any means, haha...