3.5 Head Gaskets

[Randy T.]

Considering doing head gaskets for a '02 3.5 Aurora for a customer. From what I have read about the subject, it may not be a worthwhile task. I think I have asked before in another thread, but does anyone know if the head bolt threads will tear out like the 4.0? I read something about the threads being nylon type inserts in the aluminum that naturally tear out with head bolt removal. If that is the case, would it be best to entirely stud all the head bolts to make sure it is fixed, or would time serts be better? Even if the block is studded and properly fixed, I have heard people could still possibly have problems. It seems replacing the motor with a used one might be the best bet, but that is still a risk, you don't know what you are getting. I can get used from salvage yards for $800-$1000, or pick n pull has them for $200. Getting one from a wrecked Aurora or Intrigue is what I would go for. I myself would prefer swapping the motor, customer wants to keep her original engine going, but is in a pretty tight budget. I quoted her an estimate that did not even include if the head bolts tear out, if that is the case, it's going to change the price of everything.



I have a Chilton labor guide and I can not find anything about the time it would take to do this project, I can find engine r and r, and engine r and r and rebuild, but nothing about head thread repair time. I am also wondering what kit it would take for the thread repair, if it is going to take the $500 kit like the 4.0? I have also read the 4.0 thread repair calls for 24 hrs, I don't know if that includes engine r and r. I would like to take an educated guess on the time it would take to do the 3.5 time wise, but I don't want to short myself or the customer. I think to do the head gaskets properly, have the heads tested, and including replacing everything necessary(wp/ tstat housing, so on), and head studs, it could possibly get into the $2200-$3000 price range. Where, I could swap the motor for $900-$1200 with a pick n pull motor. The pick n pull motors do have a 30 day exchange warranty, so if it's bad it would not be a total loss. I am also crediting the customer with 4 hrs since the coolant crossover did not completely fix her coolant leak, even though the coolant crossovers were bad. So if you consider that, I could install her a pick n pull motor for $700-$1000.

Advice will be greatly appreciate!

[biggusblockus]

When we did the HG on my 2002 3.5 we went with the studs from Northstar Performance. I have put 5000 miles on since the HG and they are working perfectly. These are meaty studs and are a permanent and durable fix.

[renaldo0613]

Mar 28, 2013 10:42:02 GMT -6 biggusblockus said:

When we did the HG on my 2002 3.5 we went with the studs from Northstar Performance. I have put 5000 miles on since the HG and they are working perfectly. These are meaty studs and are a permanent and durable fix.

good to hear that those N*performance studs are working. Shame that they could not be OEM.

[Randy T.]

Thanks for the info!

We decided not to rebuild the motor, gmpartsdirect has new motors for $1800 shipped, but we are not going that route either. It is going to have to be a budget friendly swap, so we might be going with a pick n pull motor from a wrecked vehicle, preferably rear ended.

[Randy T.]

Talked to someone at www.northstarperformance.com/sgstuds.php and they said the 3.5 pulling the threads out is not as common, so I am going to do the head gaskets with the engine still in the car.

If someone has a factory service manual and could post timing info and head torque info and order I would really appreciate it. '02 Aurora 3.5 V6. Information on the 3.5 is not very easy to find.

[oldwino]

Here's some of it. If you want any of the referenced procedures, let me know which ones and I'll try to get them posted.

[Randy T.]

Very good! Thank you so much!

[ntrenn]

Good luck with the repair. The one I did recently had three pulled bolts in the rear head. In my opinion, the head gasket failure preceded the bolt failure. Communication to the rear dowel bolt undermined the gasket.

[Randy T.]

Also would like "Primary Camshaft Drive chain replacement left and right 6-116"
and "camshaft replacement 6-122" and some timing mark related stuff if it's not included with camshaft replacement procedures.

I wonder if I am going to have to buy one of those j-42038 tools to hold the camshafts? I don't think I have anything like that, I will check with the parts stores and see if they have any loaner tools like this.

I got to work on it a little today, pulled the intake and valve covers and a few other things. It appears I will have to pull the ps pump pulley just to pull the ps pump, the 4.0 ps pump has one bolt and comes off a lot easier.

[Randy T.]

Apr 13, 2013 19:20:48 GMT -6 ntrenn said:

Good luck with the repair. The one I did recently had three pulled bolts in the rear head. In my opinion, the head gasket failure preceded the bolt failure. Communication to the rear dowel bolt undermined the gasket.

Thank you! I appreciate the input and I will keep a good eye on those bolts when they come out.

[oldwino]

Let me know if you need anything else.

[Randy T.]

That's great! I really appreciate it again oldwino! Thank you. I will read over it all tonight. I ordered a camshaft holder tool today, so that could take a couple days to get. For installation my friend has a nice snap on torque wrench that is programmable for certain degrees, it will probably cost me some beer to get him there. lol

[renaldo0613]

Looks like pulleys might need to be replaced while your in there. Specifically the water pump pulley looks worn.

P.S Clean looking cams there i must say. Someone was changing there oil like there supposed to for once

[Randy T.]

All the "while I was in theres" are going to have to wait, I took a lot of parts off of the list because we are footing the bill and letting the customer make payments, my boss needed to keep the cost down as much as possible to be able to help her out. I don't know how often she changes her oil, she has been taking it to walmart for that , but it does look really clean, I do know she really loves her car.


I got the rear exhaust manifold removed this evening after work, and also the coolant crossover. No time for pics today.

[Randy T.]

Very frustrated as of yesterday, already behind because of waiting on special tools to hold the camshafts. The primary chain is the one on the front, runs over everything, the secondarys are the ones that keep the camshafts turning together. They all have to line up and I can't get them lined up. I can get the primary lined up, then the secondary won't line up and the other way around. It takes about 20-30 or more revolutions of the engine to get the primary chain around the sprocket to line it up and try to get the cams to line up again, each time primary lines up, secondary changes a little. But after 2-3 hours of turning the engine by hand and not getting it to line up, I am having a hard time. I can get the primary to line up, and get the cam tools on, but the secondarys will not line up at the same time. I am wondering if someone had the cam chains off at some time and did not put the dark link back in the proper spot. I may try to hire another mechanic in, this it taking me too long. I have put a few timing belts and chains in Hondas and Toyotas and others, they were not this difficult. If I could have got the marks lined up, I would have the heads off by now. Well, with the way things are going, maybe.

[Randy T.]

"Keep turning the engine till the primary and secondary timing chains are lined up"

99intrigue.shutterfly.com/headgasket

I don't see how these chains lining up at the same time is possible. What I am reading in the FSM pages posted above, and what is in the guide linked above has slightly different info, I will be following the FSM a little closer, I think I can get back on track now. I can also say by experience there is a Chrysler style harmonic balancer puller for rent at your local parts store that will remove the balancer, it is also low profile, so you will not have to lower any engines. Although, on this '02 3.5 the engine bracket does have to come off to remove the timing cover, so lowering it is no problem.

[Randy T.]

Front head came off great, every bolt cracked like glass and came loose like they should, back head not so lucky. The rear head is the one that was leaking coolant and 2 of the bolts by the leak came out smooth, which is bad, and brought a couple threads out with them. Joy. This job is already taking me way too long trying to do it on the side, and it's not been an easy journey so far. I would have been more comfortable with a motor swap, a customer even stopped by and said he is considering selling his 2g with a bad trans for parts. Hmmm, if only.

[renaldo0613]

Keep your head up Randy!! I really appreciate all the info in this thread. God knows I know all about "detours" during a project.

[Randy T.]

Lol, I hear that! Thanks!

[Randy T.]

Just like I thought, the pressure is on, and it was made verbal yesterday, he said to get it done and done right. My boss also asked my why I was not working on it when the shop was slow, when I thought it was stated before a couple times to work on it on my own time. Since it needs done right, I am forgetting about the budget, it needs inserts all the way around and the motor needs pulled to do it. I got second guessed by my boss when I told him that, he wants me to try to do it in the car, says he has an angle drill, and to do it without getting an insert kit, just serts and taps and what not. I know this is not the right way and another mechanic friend stopped by and backed me up on this. There is no reason to just do the threads that pulled, that would be a major mistake. My boss is a good guy, but I don't think he understands that this is not a normal head gasket job, I made it clear in the beginning that the threads pulling out was highly probable, and it would not be cheap if that happens.

So I think Norms inserts look pretty good compared to time serts, and they are a little cheaper than studs. huhnsolutions.com/ The heads will be milled and checked, the block will be completely drilled and threaded, or I am not even going to do it, they can take it somewhere else to get the engine assembled, and I will install it. This is the way, this is the way, this is the way it's got to be.

[XJSman89]

I'll back you on that too, haha. Good that you're getting it done right. Some customers just don't understand how you can't do a big job quick, perfect, and cheap all at once. ;D

[Randy T.]

No doubt about that! I ordered the NS300L kit for the LX5 V6, I talked to Norm a couple times, he seems like a nice guy, and offered extra support on the kit if I need any. I got the motor ready to pull out and a cherry picker will be at the shop in the morning to yank it, I also got the heads sent off to have them tested and any work done that they need. I must say it is a relief to know that it's going to be fixed right, even though I know I still have my work cut out for me.

[renaldo0613]

Well had you had the proper budget from the beginning then this job would have been finished already.

[sall]

Personally I would have went with Northstar Performance Stud Kit vs Inserts. They offer for Aurora/Intrique V6 too. What was the price on Norm's inserts?

[Randy T.]

$378 with shipping for the inserts.

According to Midwest Cadillac repair they have had good luck with Norms inserts, and they offer studs for a slightly higher rate, and they offer a 12 month unlimited mileage warranty on their work. I doubt they would be using Norms products if there was any kind of failure rate.

midwestcadillacrepair.com/1_5_Services.html

"We have been very successful at installing the NS300L inserts, also known as the Norm's Insert (see website link below). The other option is to install studs instead of inserts at an additional cost; these are known as the Sure-Grip head stud kit (see website link below)." Ideally, and according to Norms website, his inserts combined with studs would be the perfect combination.


renaldo, I agree with you on that one! But, I can also understand their side of things, I didn't know anything about Auroras when I got mine. My boss likes Corvettes.

Motor is on the lift, I had it ready to go and pulled it in about 20 minutes yesterday morning, shop was too busy to proceed any further.

[Randy T.]

Couple more pics, I got the insert kit on Saturday.

[Randy T.]

This pic below is wrong, no duct tape!





How to remove head alignment pins, use extra body mount bolt, thread in, clamp vise grips, use giant slide hammer. These do not come out easy, I guarantee that, but you have to have them out for this job.







This next tape scheme also did not work properly. Redo!





While cleaning and inspecting, found some more threads in the bolt hole by where the head gasket was leaking, this is major failure of block threads right here buddy!





Current problem. Head bolt is bottoming out and not holding the drill alignment tool down. I don't know why, work was too busy for me to touch it, yesterday. I also ordered a lower conversion gasket set, it will take more time, but it all needs to be done right, it's all too far out for it not to be done right. I will probably not do another job like this, managing the shop and training new guys has slowed me down. I know I have taken way too long and I still have a lot of work to do.

[aurora2001tan]

Mar 28, 2013 21:22:44 GMT -6 Randy T. said:

Thanks for the info!

We decided not to rebuild the motor, gmpartsdirect has new motors for $1800 shipped, but we are not going that route either. It is going to have to be a budget friendly swap, so we might be going with a pick n pull motor from a wrecked vehicle, preferably rear ended.

wow 1800 for a new motor!!!!!!!! I might keep mine forever! LOL

[Randy T.]

I was able to get the tool bolted down, it was my fault it would not screw down all the way, I was afraid to push it.

It gets easier every hole I drill, have about 6 drilled and tapped now. The tap is not reaching the bottom of the threads on the lower holes, so after the tops are done I will have to have some extensions welded on the taps to finish the bottoms.

[Randy T.]

Threw a quick video together, and of course, it was probably the worst drilling I have had so far, it was bouncing a little bit, still came out ok. I have almost all the inserts in the top bolts, and most of the lower holes mostly drilled. Today I will have to have something extension like welded on the taps to finish the job, I hope to have all the inserts in by the end of the day.