anandsihra
Aurora Passenger
2001 Oldsmobile Aurora
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Post by anandsihra on Nov 26, 2013 13:48:11 GMT -6
The joys of online forums. People hear one side, OP wants everyone's pity as to the situation he's going through. Nobody sees the arrogance and bull**** I have to tolerate. Sounds like a stab at his clients to me.
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bobsblue95
Super Moderator
Scars of pleasure, scars of pain. Atmospheric changes make you sensitive again.
Posts: 3,125
Staff Member
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Post by bobsblue95 on Nov 26, 2013 14:57:31 GMT -6
I thought the problem was low oil pressure (less than 5 psi) and valvetrain clatter. If it's just someone who assumes 10psi is too low, then Jake's got a valid point. If the engine is still clattering after proper break in period, customer has a valid complaint.
We are seeing a lot of back and forth rhetoric and no real substance in EITHER argument at this point... the sort of back and forth that doesn't help anyone resolve anything. Let's just keep it civil and limit this thread to useful technical details rather than insinuations and vague info.
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Post by rbi2112 on Nov 27, 2013 0:07:19 GMT -6
As I have stated, when this engine reached operating temperature, it could not maintain oil pressure at low RPM (500-700). In stop & go traffic, it was necessary to keep one foot on the brake and the other on the gas. For stoplights I would put the transmission in neutral to avoid damaging the brakes and ABS module.
Mr. Weibe and others members of this forum said top end chatter from the valve train was normal - it would go away as oil circulated throughout the engine. They were correct. After a few miles the top-end chatter went away completely. The engine ran very smooth. However, at operating temperature this engine would not hold oil pressure at idle. For instance, every time I parked my car in the garage the oil pressure went all the way to zero before it was halfway through the door.
Also, as posted in Reply #79, this engine was only producing 21 PSI at 2,000 RPM (60 MPH). Another member of this club stated in Reply #76 that his Aurora had 40 PSI at 2,000 RPM. I ask all interested parties to this forum to check their cars and report back. The test should be on a level road at normal temperature in fourth gear.
I am not assuming 10 PSI at idle is too low. I would have loved to have that kind of oil pressure.
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anandsihra
Aurora Passenger
2001 Oldsmobile Aurora
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Post by anandsihra on Nov 27, 2013 6:28:19 GMT -6
I know I get 23 PSI at hot idle, and around 50 PSI at 2000 RPM.
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Post by ntrenn on Dec 1, 2013 8:57:22 GMT -6
Jake, Many of us know the pressures of owning and operating a business, regardless of size. I also spent some time working for GM, like Randy and have seen how GM historically tripped over dollar bills to pick up pennies. If Randy's engine is truly making ZERO oil pressure at idle, there is something wrong with the engine. I just changed an oil pump on a 5.3 that had a hung bypass valve. It would make 30 at 2000 rpm, but steadily dropped to zero at idle and eventually developed valve clatter. The northstar ring package was one of the early uses of light cylinder pressure to reduce engine friction. Of course there will be problems with it and development issues when you change from the factory system. I recently built a 50 year old engine with one cylinder pitted from water immersion and have run it all summer without using a single pint of oil since rebuild. My factory northstar engine with 169,000 miles on it doesn't use a quart in 3000 miles. Time to go back to the drawing board on your ring package. As far as Randy's engine - he's closer to my shop than he is yours. I'll look at it for free and give you engineering feedback.
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Post by rbi2112 on Dec 5, 2013 23:41:25 GMT -6
Well, it's been three weeks since the defective engine was removed from my white '97 (which is still awaiting pickup, by the way). This time I decided to take my sweet old time picking out a replacement. After surfing the net, several phone conversations and searching of Cadillac owner's forums, I have decided on a remanufactured 4.6 liter 9-code engine from Carroll Custom Cadillacs outside Dallas, Texas.
It is not a Cadillac dealership, but a family owned small business specializing in Cadillac restorations and the Northstar engine. One of the things which impressed me most was the wealth of information on their website regarding the NorthStar engine.
I encourage everyone on this forum to visit their website at carrollcustomcadillacs.com and open the NorthStar info specs tab. I learned things I never knew I never knew . . . There are also tutorial videos on block studding for those of us with the time and resources to do our own work, and posts on several NorthStar issues.
All of this great and all of this is grand but it won't amount to a pile of hooey if it won't hold oil pressure at idle. Both my mechanic and myself spoke at length with the owner, Tim Carroll, about what could have gone wrong with the engine from his Canadian counterpart. Apparently, there are several factors beyond bearings and oil pumps which can negatively impact the oil pressure at idle. We both came away impressed with his knowledge and expertise regarding these engines and mutually agreed he was the best choice to get my car running like it's supposed to.
The cost is $4,000 dollars delivered with a 3-year unlimited mileage warranty, which is actually posted on their website. And I even get a receipt - right in the box. Yeah, the engine actually comes in a box!
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Post by sempar on Dec 17, 2013 18:39:58 GMT -6
Good luck with your dealings with CCC; I certainly hope your outcome is much better than Northstar Performance. Let's hope you don't have to use that warranty card. It seems that they all have an out if they deem it necessary. here's an excerpt from CCC's:
Let it also be known and understood that due to the dishonesty of those who have taken advantage of our goodwill, it is hereby written that at the sole discretion of Carroll Cadillac, our complete warranty can and will be withdrawn at anytime deemed necessary!
I think if the time comes to rebuild my Aurora 4.0, I'll do it myself with parts that I choose.
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Post by renaldo0613 on Dec 17, 2013 20:02:17 GMT -6
Good luck with your dealings with CCC; I certainly hope your outcome is much better than Northstar Performance. Let's hope you don't have to use that warranty card. It seems that they all have an out if they deem it necessary. here's an excerpt from CCC's: Let it also be known and understood that due to the dishonesty of those who have taken advantage of our goodwill, it is hereby written that at the sole discretion of Carroll Cadillac, our complete warranty can and will be withdrawn at anytime deemed necessary! I think if the time comes to rebuild my Aurora 4.0, I'll do it myself with parts that I choose. Couldnt of said it any better. Thats the best way to warranty your work, by doing it yourself. However not everyone can so thats the part that sucks.
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Post by rbi2112 on Dec 29, 2013 21:13:07 GMT -6
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Post by rbi2112 on Dec 29, 2013 21:15:47 GMT -6
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Post by rbi2112 on Dec 29, 2013 21:38:56 GMT -6
The new engine arrived a couple weeks ago from Texas. I wanted to share with everyone the difference between how the two companies ship their product.
The engine above wrapped in plastic came from Northstar Performance (Jake Weibe) last summer. His mom and dad delivered it with the family pickup. No box, no skid, nothing.
The other picture shows the engine from Carroll Custom Cadillac, bolted to a skid inside a box, braced and wrapped in plastic. It also contained all the gaskets I need to reassemble the engine - and a receipt, which was refreshing...
The final cost was $4,000 dollars, $325 less than Weibe's. Was surprised that it did not include valve covers though, which means I will use the ones off my old 4.0, making the car a sleeper, I guess.
I wrapped the old engine in plastic after removal (11-15) to protect it while waiting on Mr. Weibe to come and get it. As of Christmas (nearly 6 weeks later), it is still setting there, altho he has finally called to say the truck was on it's way.
Once again, the shop has more work than mechanics, so progress is slow. Hopefully the work will be worth the wait.
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Post by northstrperformnce on Jan 3, 2014 17:17:24 GMT -6
I have shipped engines in crates too, only to have someone open the crate with a reciprocating saw and damaging a cylinder head. So at that point I made a decision that engines would be direct shipped off the back of my company truck. No crate needed..... why would there be? How much safer does it get, than one engine, being delievered direct-to-destination?
The engine is waiting for me to inspect. Guess what - if I find no metallic particals in the crankcase it's going straight into one of my own cars and I'm going to test the oil pressure once again.
The results will be posted and we will see if it in fact, has 0 psi at idle.
I was lied to by someone, you or the mechanic because I was given two different oil pressure readings. You said 10 PSI at hot idle (go back to the beginning of these forums) and your mechanic told me 0. if it has 0 PSI it would be full of metal shards.
Just so everyone is up to date with this, 10 PSI at hot idle is PERFECTLY normal. If you don't believe this; you shouldn't be allowed to do any more than change the oil on a N*.
So that's the engine you got from CCC? Are you sure? Because I see valve covers attatched to the engine in the box. Someone sure knows how to lie....I thought you said it didn't come with any.......
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Post by sall on Jan 3, 2014 18:40:58 GMT -6
Yeah I see the valve covers on there too. Unless he just posted a generic image from CCC?
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Post by northstrperformnce on Jan 3, 2014 20:52:11 GMT -6
I'm not exactly sure. All I know is now is no time for anything but the truth. I will be finding out if there's anything wrong with that engine that I got back. And the truth will be posted.
My efforts to replace the engine in January of 2014 with an updated unit were rejected, my offer to repair the engine at my shop including offering lodging at no charge, were rejected, and I was slapped with a chargeback through Paypal.
As such I should mention that the original poster has every dime of his money back.
Now.
As a car guy, I would be pissed too if I bought a $4k engine and it did not have proper oil pressure. But I would for sure allow the shop that built it; to make it right. I also would not jump to conclusions regarding valvetrain noise. It's perfectly normal for a Northstar to take anywhere from 30-45 minutes to bleed off the lifters, with proper oil pressure. That's going to happen. That was a fresh build, brand new lifters. All 32.
In many ways I am not sorry I have that engine back. It should have gone into my own car in the first place, I was in need of one for my 1997 STS. I have a perfectly good car without an engine.
70+ PSI at cranking speed, at room temperature (70 degrees F), believe me it will not hit 0 PSI at hot idle. It will have some pressure. I want an accurate reading and I want to put an end to this B.S.
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Post by Blacky Bulger on Jan 4, 2014 0:14:49 GMT -6
If there's one thing for sure I remember my 99 Aurora definitely was driven hard by me and the previous owner always had the "Low Oil Pressure" alarm. It had lots of valve train noise and sounded more like a consistent knock.... car never let me down... until the tranny went at 193k miles but i knew it would happen soon enough month after purchase it had random tc lockup codes but lasted!
I think personally the engine just had to be broken in and to be honest... its a dohc set up if I recall correctly I remember someone on this forum saying low oil pressure (3-5 psi) for us is not to big of a deal but in a push-rod its the end...
Just throwing food for thought out there also please correct anything... I'm writing this at 1 am and extremely exhausted from the crazy snow we just received in Boston
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Post by Blacky Bulger on Jan 4, 2014 0:18:57 GMT -6
Also remember we cannot point fingers!
Northstar performance has been around for some time now why are we now bad mouthing them?
Well atleast I'm just now hearing bad things....
Planning on getting another Aurora soon! Own a Mark Viii now and I want both of these American beauties!
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Post by northstrperformnce on Jan 4, 2014 9:38:41 GMT -6
The engine did need to be broken in, without shutting it down after a few minutes because of "valvetrain chatter". As for the oil pressure being low, 10psi had apparently "scared" the owner of the shop that installed it. He should have known that was GOOD oil pressure for a Northstar.
What's the best way to get a company to honour warranty on an engine? Claim it has NO oil pressure, right? Someone had that in mind. Because no matter how you look at it, the story does not add up.
Because of this ill-knowledge and quick-reflexes of the OP and shop owner, they just pulled a PERFECTLY good engine out of the car and I ate all of the costs, including delivery.
The OP is hell-bent on trying to make me look like a jackass, and he has help in Texas.
Damn...... I respect my parents and I appreciate their help in this business. They're retired and if it wasn't for them willing to drive for me, there's no way in the world I could afford to ship engines direct-to-point.....I'd have to use a company like UPS or Conway again, and God only knows what engine crates go through in a cross country trip. At least this way it's under our full control right until it reaches the destination. LTL freight shipping is not that safe, believe me. People rarely care how packages and crates are handled, unless they're invested in the contents within. I am VERY lucky and proud to have parents willing to lend a hand.
Another note; the engine was not wrapped up in plastic when my father picked it up on Saturday December 28th. I asked him last night on the phone and he said all that was done was the intake ports were filled with plastic bags.
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Post by renaldo0613 on Jan 4, 2014 9:44:06 GMT -6
Yeah i def see valve covers on that engine from CCC
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Post by northstrperformnce on Jan 4, 2014 16:06:44 GMT -6
Here's a photo my father texted to me, this is the way the engine was picked up from the shop in Ohio. At least the intake ports were plugged with plastic bags..... but it most certainly was not wrapped back up in plastic. Not a big deal, just pointing that out.
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Post by northstrperformnce on Jan 4, 2014 16:55:45 GMT -6
If there was 0 PSI of pressure you wouldn't still see oil around the lifter. And you would see liquid metal built up at the base of the lifter. I have seen this happen to engines that have lost oil pressure. Well lubricated.
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Post by rbi2112 on Jan 6, 2014 17:24:43 GMT -6
So, Jake is up to his old tricks again. Gee, who would’ve seen that one coming . . . Mr. Weibe, wrapping something as delicate as an engine in plastic, then shipping it several hundred miles across international boundaries unsecured without a heavy, protective container, is an invitation to disaster. This policy alone speaks volumes about your utter lack of professionalism. Your customers deserve better.
Having dealt with you these past four months, I fully expected you to come back in a couple weeks and say the engine is performing flawlessly with great oil pressure. I knew that when I made the decision to file the dispute.
However, I am surprised by the pettiness of your early assault on my character and that of my mechanic. Let me now respond to each of your grossly inaccurate characterizations one by one. For the sake of brevity, I will post only the salient points. The entire posts from which they were taken can be read by looking up the posted Reply #.
Lie-1) JAKE: I was lied to by someone, you or the mechanic because I was given two different oil pressure readings. You said 10 PSI at hot idle (go back to the beginning of these forums) and your mechanic told me 0. if it has 0 PSI it would be full of metal shards.
MY RESPONSE: Either my mechanic or myself is lying about oil pressure, huh? Look at the early posts, huh? Okay, let’s do just that. Here is my post of Sept 4, 2013. This went up the day after the engine was first started (Reply 51):
Re: catastrophic engine failure « Reply #51 on Sept 4, 2013, 10:11am »
Wednesday 09-04-2013 Complete Auto finished installation of my NorthStar Performance engine yesterday. It started right up and they began break-in procedures - running the engine for short periods of time and shutting it off, then letting it cool off completely.
They contacted me this morning with an issue of which I am well acquainted. There is a relatively high amount of top-end chatter coming from the valve train. It seems as the engine warms up, the oil pressure drops from a high of 75 PSI (with virtually no noise) down to 10 PSI. As the oil pressure drops, the chatter increases as if it is starving for oil. They are very concerned. At 10 PSI (on a mechanical gauge), they shut the engine down. I explained 8-10 pounds on this engine is within the normal range.
Did you catch that last sentence, Jake? 8-10 lbs. on this engine is in normal range. As this was their first Northstar installation, of course my shop was concerned by top-end chatter and shut it off. What mechanic worth his salt wouldn’t be? I posted this question on this thread, and as everyone can see, it was the mechanic, not me who made the early statement about 10 PSI at idle. And as anyone who can read will see, it was at 10 PSI that they shut the engine off - not where the oil pressure bottomed out.
Why do you purposely misstate and misdirect, take things out of context and intentionally seek to confuse everyone who reads these posts? Why won’t you present you arguments in an honest, forthright manner?
Because you can’t.
The oil pressure does go down to zero. I posted that fact on this thread (Reply 92):
Re: catastrophic engine failure « Reply #92 on Nov 27, 2013, 12:07am »
As I have stated, when this engine reached operating temperature, it could not maintain oil pressure at low RPM (500-700). In stop & go traffic, it was necessary to keep one foot on the brake and the other on the gas. For stoplights I would put the transmission in neutral to avoid damaging the brakes and ABS module.
Mr. Weibe and others members of this forum said top end chatter from the valve train was normal - it would go away as oil circulated throughout the engine. They were correct. After a few miles the top-end chatter went away completely. The engine ran very smooth. However, at operating temperature this engine would not hold oil pressure at idle. For instance, every time I parked my car in the garage the oil pressure went all the way to zero before it was halfway through the door.
Also, as posted in Reply #79, this engine was only producing 21 PSI at 2,000 RPM (60 MPH). Another member of this club stated in Reply #76 that his Aurora had 40 PSI at 2,000 RPM.
I am not assuming 10 PSI at idle is too low. I would have loved to have that kind of oil pressure.
Lie-2) JAKE: So that's the engine you got from CCC? Are you sure? Because I see valve covers attatched to the engine in the box. Someone sure knows how to lie....I thought you said it didn't come with any.......
MY RESPONSE: I will give you this, your statement that someone sure knows how to lie is entirely accurate. You sir, are a master of the created falsehood.
Now the insinuation that I haven’t even replaced the engine, that the picture I posted is a forgery? And the valve covers are proof? Excuse my curiosity, but what would be my motivation? Why would I lie about such a mundane detail?
Dude, you need psychiatric help. Seriously, see a health care professional. There are treatments available. Life is too fleeting and fragile to spend all your time making these wild and outlandish claims against someone just because they purchased a failed product from your so-called company.
Here is the receipt: Be sure to go over it with a fine tooth comb. There’s bound to be a hidden clue somewhere. Maybe a T not crossed - or an i missing a dot . . .
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Post by rbi2112 on Jan 6, 2014 17:30:06 GMT -6
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Post by rbi2112 on Jan 6, 2014 17:31:06 GMT -6
Renaldo and Sall, I ask that you pay particular attention to this next photo. It is the Instructions and Tips page. A quick read of the first paragraph will suffice.
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Post by rbi2112 on Jan 6, 2014 17:33:29 GMT -6
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Post by rbi2112 on Jan 6, 2014 17:41:18 GMT -6
Lie-3) JAKE: My efforts to replace the engine in January of 2014 with an updated unit were rejected, my offer to repair the engine at my shop including offering lodging at no charge, were rejected, and I was slapped with a chargeback through Paypal.
As such I should mention that the original poster has every dime of his money back. Now, as a car guy, I would be pissed too if I bought a $4k engine and it did not have proper oil pressure. But I would for sure allow the shop that built it; to make it right.
MY RESPONSE: 800+ miles to another country to have you put me up in a hotel? Really? On a car that isn’t even getting 20 MPGs? Now, here is Jake Weibe, in his own words via email to me on Nov 7, 2013. This is his actual stated offer, 64 days after the engine went in the car. It contains all the fine print :
"If you change your note and your attitude and stop believing that I am attempting to rip you off; here is my proposal.
Get the documentation you need to come to my shop in Ontario. Drive the Aurora to my shop in January. I will repair or replace that engine if found to be defective. I know what the proper oil pressure is to be at and I will not be using a digital readout from an electronic sensor. It will be checked mechanically with a proper pressure gauge.
You and I will go for a test drive after the repairs are complete and I will show you; whatever issues that apparently are present; will no longer be present. If you interfere with the R&D that I need to do; not only to help with your potential problem; but any other of my Northstar customers; it will not help you; it will not help me; and it will not help any other Northstar owner out there.
You can post this to ACNA, as I am sure you will.
MY RESPONSE: Now, who of us, in their right mind would consider an offer like that? With you calling all the shots. And if I interfere with your R & D? What in the world does that even mean? It’s obvious from that statement that you have already made your mind up. And if I ask a single question about how you arrived at your foregone conclusion, that will constitute interference, won’t it? A blind man could see how a trip to Canada would work out.
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Post by rbi2112 on Jan 6, 2014 18:47:49 GMT -6
Lie-4) JAKE: Because of this ill-knowledge and quick-reflexes of the OP and shop owner, they just pulled a PERFECTLY good engine out of the car and I ate all of the costs, including delivery.
MY RESPONSE: So you ate all the costs of pulling that engine, including delivery. That is a bald-faced LIE. You haven’t paid the shop a dime. Are you now publicly stating they should bill you? I’ll let them know. The cost should be in the neighborhood of $1,650 dollars. Let's watch and see if Jake keeps his word this time.
And finally, there was this little gem of a post about another so-called lie he caught me in:
Lie-5) JAKE: Re: catastrophic engine failure « Reply #108 on Jan 4, 2014, 4:06pm »
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Post by northstrperformnce on Jan 7, 2014 10:42:18 GMT -6
"Temporary Valve Covers"? Really? REALLY?!
Professionalism at its finest.
Honestly, I have other people to deal with. Ones that can understand common sense.
I have only barely skimmed over your replies. But the first phone call to you after your concerns of "lifter chatter" already told me you have an attitude issue and a general lack of common knowledge when it comes to engines.
1) lifter chatter is normal on a fresh build until the lifters bleed off 2) 10 psi and 0 psi are two very different numbers and you screwed up posting in the ACNA thinking I would not find and read that 3) you can deal with an ********* from Texas, nothing changes that fact that even if that engine holds up that he sent you, it is MY patent-pending idea holding those heads to your engine block. So you still have me to thank for that (Tim will have his day yet)
I'm not responsible for labor charges for pulling out a perfectly good engine
You immediately percieved the wrong image of me and my company just because that ONE day you could not get ahold of me by phone. You paid the price for that, not me.
You will continue to spend your time and your efforts making sure nobody does business with me. Yet I will continue to offer my good services to:
1) decent people 2) competent people 3) people lacking automotive knowledge but willing to learn from someone who has experience
And, yes, maybe someday I will need psychiatric help, because of dealing with the 2% of the population who are similar to you. You heard me, I'm not sugarcoating that. 98% of the population I enjoy working with. The 2% such as yourself make me sorry I got up in the morning and went to the shop. I have better things to do than build engines for unappreciative jerks.
Believe me, you can try. You will not damage me or my company. If I lose a sale or two from this thread, I will pick that money up somewhere else.
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Post by renaldo0613 on Jan 7, 2014 19:26:09 GMT -6
Temporary valve covers. Well it says it in the paperwork. I wonder why you cant use the valve covers he sent with the engine. I can understand just wanting to cover the valve train for shipping. But i just wonder why.
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Post by boduke on Jan 10, 2014 0:38:55 GMT -6
Yes the Aurora is a different breed of car, exactly why I purchased one. I am going to pull my engine as soon as the weather breaks for spring, and give it a good going over to prevent future problems, and no matter how experienced your mechanic is The Aurora is a different breed of car, the closest to it would be the Riviera, and the Toronado, both great in their own right.
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Post by boduke on Jan 10, 2014 0:41:30 GMT -6
Aurora a different breed of car.
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