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Post by Letitroll98 on Feb 16, 2005 10:12:07 GMT -6
Ok, so it's called the "Aura". The multple previews in Car & Driver, Motor Trend, et al claim Saturn is poised to be the new Oldsmobile in GM's lineup and this Epsilon platform (G6, Malibu, Saab 9-3) based example with the 3.6 V6 twin cam is the Aurora replacement. I love the looks and the new engine with 250hp is encouraging, but the G6 has had mixed reviews, so whether this is a worthy successor is much in doubt. What do ya'll think? www.motortrend.com/autoshows/coverage/112_05_chicago_saturnaura/index.html
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Post by JimW on Feb 16, 2005 10:27:22 GMT -6
Give it a 4L V8 and I'm happy. Then I'd strip the badges that refer to Saturn
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Post by oldsauroraman1 on Feb 16, 2005 11:02:18 GMT -6
Well, its a Saturn. That is bad news to start with. 1. Saturn is an "odd ball" car as it is a parts specific vehicle and most garages are pretty irritated whenever they have one come in - consequently, owners get irritated as well when they find out their parts won't be in for a few days. Of course, if you are a Saturn dealership, no problem. But try to find one in a non-metropolitan area!
2. Saturn will definitely cheapen the Aurora name. GRRR. Saturn does not have a reputation for ANY high-end, top quality vehicle.
3. The ONLY cure for Aurora is the name OLDSMOBILE to return. That could be done easily enough, esp. when GM has all that money to throw around with its foreign companies! Well, perhaps if it was revived under the Cadillac name it would be OK, but it is still a disgrace that GM pulled Oldsmobile!
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Post by omegaic on Feb 17, 2005 0:27:21 GMT -6
It is well named seeing as how it's missing the "roar".
"Is that a Saturn Aura?" "Or a what?"
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Post by rocketman on Feb 17, 2005 9:56:17 GMT -6
Let's see, destroy Olds for the benefit of Saturn then reference a Saturn as an Olds replacement.
I'm not pissed! I've had it with GM. They may as well relinguish #1 to Toyota now. They just don't get it, they repeatedly offend their loyal customers.
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Post by Marc on Feb 17, 2005 13:07:06 GMT -6
I've had it with GM. They may as well relinguish #1 to Toyota now. They just don't get it, they repeatedly offend their loyal customers. They are also VERY close to losing me to either Audi or Mercedes!!! _________________ GM!!! BRING BACK OLDS!!!
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scottydl
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Post by scottydl on Feb 17, 2005 14:59:06 GMT -6
Eh... not bad, but "it's a Saturn" as others have said. Plus IMO it just does NOT have the unique styling of the Aurora. Looks like a re-designed Nissan Altima with bigger wheels.
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Post by stevensolds on Feb 17, 2005 16:48:17 GMT -6
Ugly. The classic looks a hell of a lot better than a saturn, damn right scotty. Classic looks better than a lot of new cars even.
Saturn are such POS. That SUV that hit my dads jaguar -- wasnt one piece left standing of that thing. That bimbo nearly ended it all too, she was bleeding and was cut all over.
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Post by Rocketv8 on Feb 19, 2005 16:57:41 GMT -6
this is a disgrace!!!! i think we, as loyal GM customers, should all write to GM and Saturn and protest the naming of this car as "Aura" (alot of good it would do, right ?) this is an insult to the memory of the AURORA as well as Oldsmobile....Saturn is a joke.....plastic crap cars....and, as for the G6, it in no way replaces the Aurora in my opinion....its a glorified Grand Am...there I said it
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scottydl
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There's nothin' like an American V-8...
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Post by scottydl on Feb 21, 2005 11:24:44 GMT -6
....and, as for the G6, it in no way replaces the Aurora in my opinion....its a glorified Grand Am...there I said it Hehe, believe me you're not the first one to say it. We had this discussion a month or two ago at BonnevilleClub.com when the G6 first came out. I'm not sure what the big deal about them is, honestly. It seems like new cars coming out now just have very little originality, unless they are high-priced specialty cars (and not a practical daily driver like most of us have).
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Post by Letitroll98 on Feb 21, 2005 16:06:35 GMT -6
Yeah, I lean the same way. The original Olds full size cars are only replaced by Caddy in any meaningful way. Which are great cars with styling I can't go for, and Buick sucks. However Olds was not just Auroras, there were Aleros, Cutlass's, 88's, etc. in the mix as well. And as Saturn has not been all that successful lately, why not a change for them? The Epsilon platform is not perfect, but is certainly a step up from the GrandAm. If you check out the web site I listed, the interior is stunning. They are putting the best V6 in it and, from the front and rear more so, the styling is appealing. You must also consider the Saturn dealer network, which is one of the lines (ok, only) strong points. This leads to what I considered the most important point. Not a particular car, but that GM may position Saturn as a replacement for Olds as the import fighter. This would mean that GM considered the old boy network in place with Olds as its albatross and that the shafting of all those dealerships would be a corporate decision, not an unfortunate consequence of poor market position as they stated. So what would you think of a CVT based Saturn Aurora with V6 and V8 options?
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Post by Custom88 on Feb 21, 2005 17:17:50 GMT -6
I like it actually.. I don't think it should be categorized to be similar to an aurora but I think it's still a nice car.
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Post by oldsauroraman1 on Feb 21, 2005 18:06:37 GMT -6
No apologies for being redundant but:
1. Saturn is an "odd ball" car as it is a parts specific vehicle and most garages are pretty irritated whenever they have one come in - consequently, owners get irritated as well when they find out their parts won't be in for a few days. Of course, if you are a Saturn dealership, no problem. But try to find one in a non-metropolitan area!
2. Saturn will definitely cheapen the Aurora name. GRRR. Saturn does not have a reputation for ANY high-end, top quality vehicle.
3. The ONLY cure for Aurora is the name OLDSMOBILE to return. That could be done easily enough, esp. when GM has all that money to throw around with its foreign companies! Well, perhaps if it was revived under the Cadillac name it would be OK, but it is still a disgrace that GM pulled Oldsmobile!
Saturn is set up plainly stupid by GM. It is an entity all its own. They are well known for being cheap cars made to look extravagant and a real aggrivation to get parts for, including this new "Aura" they are presenting. Indeed, Saturn has a "Aura" all its own, and it is about as good as a cow flop!
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Post by 95mushroom on Feb 22, 2005 1:33:13 GMT -6
A different viewpoint....
Note I don't want to bash the Aurora in any shape or form
1) Saying Saturn is a failure I feel in incorrect. Look at the recent SUCCESS of the VUE and around here at college the ION is the second most popular car (to the Civic obviously).
2) You guys have repeated said that trying to get parts for Saturn's is really difficult in not metropoliton areas. I don't remember any marketing program from Saturn remoting adversting Saturns in the country. I can image getting Mazda or Mitubitshi(sp.) parts being equal tough and both those companies have had recent success as well.
3) I am probably too young to remember perfectly but, I kinda remember back to 1993-4ish when Oldsmobile had a box Cutlass, Acheiva, and 88/98. Despite the earlier Trofeo, nothing was exciting or noteworthy (Please lemme know if I'm forgetting a model). Then the Aurora came along and saved the brand for a few more years. People had trouble buying a car of entry-level luxury with the brand Oldsmobile attached. Or I should say most or at least more then a couple did. Also, VW has a $100k sedan and an $60k SUV out, Mitu has a serious sports car out (EVO) Brands really don't matter any more and almost every car today is on an individual model basis. I feel the success of the import has killed brand loyality.
4) The Aura is NOT a replacement for the Aurora. The Aurora is a full size car (for certain the classic is). The Aura is based on the Epsilon platform is mid-size near compact sized. The Aurora is luxury with some VERY minor sport. The Aura is definetly is sport with some minor luxury say the leather seats and nice steering wheel. Your comparing apples to oranges
Just my 53 cents.
Let the comments begin......
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Post by stevensolds on Feb 22, 2005 6:38:07 GMT -6
(1) i see a lot of VUE's around here too. I also saw the one that went into my dads brand new jaguar. Nothnig left of the thing and the rear end of the jaguar wasnt even smashed in. You get what you pay for. (2) if i remember correctly, the EVO is just a Lancer with a 2.4L saturn ectotech motor with a ball-bearing turbocharger fitted and a ricer spoiler. thats a lot of car for $31,000.................(being sarcastic) For $31,000 i could buy a 2003 ford mustang cobra that would just blow the doors off that m'fer (3) i dont consider the aurora to be an entry-level luxury car for its day. in 1995 Heated seats, leather seats and wheel, cd stereo sound, a 250HP DOHC V8 and all the other stuff was a lot of bang for its time and for only $32,000. it was a great competitor until they jacked the price. Oh and btw in those pics above that is the fake leather as usual and the interior will feel real chinsy when you sit inside it...looks can be deceiving
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scottydl
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Post by scottydl on Feb 22, 2005 8:50:13 GMT -6
(1) i see a lot of VUE's around here too. I also saw the one that went into my dads brand new jaguar. Nothnig left of the thing and the rear end of the jaguar wasnt even smashed in. You get what you pay for. I'd be willing to bet that your dad's Jaguar is necessarily any safer than a VUE, just because it didn't show as much damage. You have to understand the basics of crash dynamics, and safety features that are built into cars now. In many current cars (including the new Aura I'm sure), body panels have built-in "crumple zones" that will get crushed into nothing upon considerable impact... that absorbs crash forces that would otherwise reach the driver/passengers and potentially cause serious injury or death. Even tho my '69 Executive is a massive piece of good ol' Detroit iron, I would much rather crash a newer car if I had the choice... my Executive would probably come out of a lot of crashes looking okay, but I might not be so lucky if all those non-absorbant metal parts transferred the force of a crash directly to my body. Just something to keep in mind...
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Post by oldsauroraman1 on Feb 22, 2005 9:43:41 GMT -6
[quote author=stevensolds Oh and btw in those pics above that is the fake leather as usual and the interior will feel real chinsy when you sit inside it...looks can be deceiving [/quote] NO! Never! Well. Whatta ya know, Saturn is really cheap indeed! Looks, not quality, are what these cars are about to make money. Great point Stevesolds! BTW, Go to your local NAPA, ADVANCE, AUTO ZONE, CAR QUEST, etc. and ask for a part for a Saturn. You will get laughed out of there! Only Saturn sells Saturn parts - if you can drive there in time before they close - their nearest dealership is 55 miles from us here in NE Pennsylvania! Also, don't go to a GM dealer either, they cannot get Saturn parts or stock them. They can order them only from a Saturn dealership! Saturn is an isolated entity. What a joke.
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Post by Letitroll98 on Feb 22, 2005 14:25:24 GMT -6
Good points guys. I played Devil's advocate for awhile to get your opinions, but they’d have to really play “show me” for Saturn to win me over. OldsAuroraMan1 you are so right about GM setting Saturn apart. The only reason is to have a car to sell in, for lack of a better analogy, Blue states. Then GM can move Chevys and Pontiacs in NASCAR heavy Red states. Cadillac also operates separately for good reason and to good effect. I would imagine GM trying to replicate this success at Saturn, targeting the younger market that views Honda as the paradigm that Olds failed at, no matter how much we like our Auroras. That would leave Buick as the odd man out when their aging consumer base dies out. So GM ends up with this mix. Caddy as the luxury/performance group competing with Lexus thru Mercedes. Saturn would morph into the sport/near lux group competing with Mitsu/Honda/Acura. Chevy and Pontiac filling the traditional roles they have done successfully so far (GMC of course just build trucks and makes money). The traditional Olds and Buick customers will be dead or buying golf carts in Sun City, leaving GM with a lean, fast reacting, manufacturing foundation feeding a large, established dealer network. I kinda like it. The only problem would be moving Saturn up market, but who would miss the Ion? Saturn is begging to be reinvented and I think GM will try. P.S. OldsAuroraMan1, GM doesn't care if you can or can't get used parts at NAPA. They sell new cars. Dealers and private parties sell used cars that are not under warranty and need parts from NAPA. They don't want any Saturn owners going anywhere but their Saturn dealer, that's the whole idea. ;D P.S.S. Steven, cheap seats with leather on the seating surfaces and vinyl everywhere else. Just like your Aurora?
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Post by Rocketv8 on Feb 22, 2005 17:15:58 GMT -6
yeah, well, the Aurora may have leather only on seating surfaces and vinyl everywhere else, but, at least the leather is NICE, soft and looks expensive....trust me, my dad has a 2002 Chevy Impala and a Trailblazer with "leather" seating surfaces and they come nowhere near the quality of the leather in my Aurora, as it looks cheap and isnt smooth...now, if GM cant use good leather in an Impala they are certainly not going to in a plastic car like a Saturn
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Post by oldsauroraman1 on Feb 22, 2005 17:25:21 GMT -6
" They don't want any Saturn owners going anywhere but their Saturn dealer, that's the whole idea."
EXACTLY why they do not sell well. The word is out about the expensive parts that you can only buy at a dealer who is smiling all the way. These cars are not a less expensive vehicle, rather expensive and a sorry excuse for an automobile at that.
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Post by oldsauroraman1 on Feb 22, 2005 17:27:57 GMT -6
GM doesn't care if you can or can't get used parts at NAPA. TEXT Well, I believe the folks who work for AC Delco and the various parts divisions of GM will adamantly disagree with that. Indeed, GM does want the Saturn people to go only to the dealer. However, many folks do not trust dealers after the warranty expires on their vehilce.
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Post by Letitroll98 on Feb 22, 2005 20:13:53 GMT -6
Respectfully, I think you're missing the point. Well, several of them. Saturn doesn't sell as well as it could because of poor product offerings. Honda, Toyota, Mercedes and BMW have very expensive parts not sold universally and they do just fine thank you because they offer a product so good people will ignore these problems. The only, and I mean only, parts consideration these buyers have is if their car will be in the shop more than one day because of parts, and this hasn't been the case since global overnite shipping took effect in the early nineties. They buy new cars, they have warranties, they don't care.
Now if its me and you, of course your points are well taken and that's why you and I don't drive Saturns. We only put up with all the niggling little problems on Auroras because they're such a uniquely fine automobile. And of course you and Rocket are right on about Saturn being a crappy little car, all of them.
But what you're missing is that they have a dealer network in place, one that people like dealing with, except for the fact that GM doesn't allow sales profits to subsidize the repair shop so they charge what you would have to normaly pay to keep a dealership shop in business, not market price at any Pepboys (i.e. you have to pay GM trained techs, not 18 month wonders from Lincoln Tech). So if you really improve product whereby you make enough money to subsidize the repair shop a little, vis a vis the Vue, you kill two birds. You fix the poor product problem while increasing profits. And the market nitch is wide open where Olds was. This is the point, not that Saturn builds crappy cars.
Yeah, Rocket, the seats are soooo fine. ;D
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Post by 95mushroom on Feb 22, 2005 22:15:23 GMT -6
stevensolds,
I gave the Aurora an entry level luxury based upon 3 luxury car ratings, entry, middle, premium. I wouldn't give the Aurora a middle rating because I refer a middle luxury car as a E-Class or 5-series which offer a lot more then the Aurora.
The Lexus ES300 and Acura TL are out for 1995 model year and both with the Aurora where considered entry level at the time. That was the point of the Aurora was to offer more to attract buyers.
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Post by JimW on Feb 23, 2005 8:00:38 GMT -6
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the E-class and BMW 5 for reasons of comparsion...notwithstanding that I love all 3 cars in question here
I have been in all 3 vehicles at some point, and my Aurora offered more standard features, more power (not performance), softer leather seats and overall better value for the dollar. The Aurora however lacks in resale value. Performance wise and the "fun to drive' factor, then the Germans definitely get the edge.
I think what has to be considered is domestic vs import level of 3-stage luxury.
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Post by oldsauroraman1 on Feb 23, 2005 9:42:33 GMT -6
Indeed the Aurura stands out by itself in the domestic market.
I called the Oldsmobile 800 # the other day to check on recalls for my 98 Aurora - none. Then the fellow says, "any other concerns?" Well, there was the opportunity, "Yes" I said, "they're not making them anymore." The Olds phone rep replied with a GM line, "too many other cars in GM similar to Olds," "too little profit," "poor sales." I replied, with "too bad." Didn't want to argue with him but, you know, "Hummers" are not out there selling like crazy!
Anyhow, the Aurora is one fine automobile, nothing out there close to replacing it either ~ sorry GM!
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Post by 95mushroom on Feb 25, 2005 2:35:49 GMT -6
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the E-class and BMW 5 for reasons of comparsion...notwithstanding that I love all 3 cars in question here I have been in all 3 vehicles at some point, and my Aurora offered more standard features, more power (not performance), softer leather seats and overall better value for the dollar. The Aurora however lacks in resale value. Performance wise and the "fun to drive' factor, then the Germans definitely get the edge. I think what has to be considered is domestic vs import level of 3-stage luxury. Well just different viewpoints. I feel though that is not cheap to make big cars fun to drive. Also were both 5 and E's their respective V8s (540i/545i or E430/E500)? The Aurora, though how awesome it is, is no match for those beasts. The thing about those cars is they have a very large range from their low ball sixies to Hi-Po M5 and E55's. Also its the Aurora's poor resale value that I was able to buy mine. The last part, stage 3 luxury, I assume you mean premium. What premium domestic actually is there? The only thing maybe is the XLR going against the SL500. The STS is not enough for an S500 or 745i. Maybe S430 but those should have never been made. Have to wait till the new DTS arrives. Though of course GM wouldn't made anything for the S600 (#3 dream car).
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Post by stevensolds on Feb 25, 2005 23:05:58 GMT -6
I'd be willing to bet that your dad's Jaguar is necessarily any safer than a VUE, just because it didn't show as much damage. You have to understand the basics of crash dynamics, and safety features that are built into cars now. In many current cars (including the new Aura I'm sure), body panels have built-in "crumple zones" that will get crushed into nothing upon considerable impact... that absorbs crash forces that would otherwise reach the driver/passengers and potentially cause serious injury or death. Even tho my '69 Executive is a massive piece of good ol' Detroit iron, I would much rather crash a newer car if I had the choice... my Executive would probably come out of a lot of crashes looking okay, but I might not be so lucky if all those non-absorbant metal parts transferred the force of a crash directly to my body. Just something to keep in mind... Let me tell you about the jaguar. The rear bumper wasnt even broken cause underneath it was pure steel. You wont see that many cars today with steel bumpers any longer... Thats why the saturn was so messed up. The car did what it was designed to ; transfer the energy to other parts to minimize the damage to the parts like that. And yes i know about crumple zones, thats what this car is full of. Same with Mercedens Benz and many others.
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Post by Aurora40 on Feb 26, 2005 9:40:02 GMT -6
Saturn no longer has their own platforms, engines, etc. So I doubt parts availability will be an issue in the future. They are just another GM division now.
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