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Post by WillV on Jun 4, 2007 19:27:24 GMT -6
I'm in the process of rebuilding a 4.6 northstar to replace my 4.0. My 4.0 isn't tired, at almost 130,000 it is still quite strong. But i've never heard of or seen an aurora with a 4.6 northstar in it so... I will post when the engine is rebuilt and the swap begins. there will be pics when I remeber to do the whole digital camera thing and I will gladly answer the questions that I have answers to. Aswers that I have right now: 1) 1999, black 2)K&N filter(air) 3)self fabricated 2-1/2 in exhaust single to 2 in dual out(not yet installed) it sounds really mean ;D ) !!!! 4)4.6 for $600 (really, and it is a running engine!!! blown/leaking head gasket) 5) helped madcatter (a member) to mod and paint his aurora as a wedding gift to him and his wife. (no i don't paint) 6)rebuild kit for 4.6 @ $600, gasket kit is (I think) @$100,Head bolt set x2 @$150. total cost is expected to reach a little over $2000 7)machine shop expenses will vary, in my case @$200(inspection of engine/heads)@$200(balance rotating assembly) you should expect the same within a 25% range 8) reman engines can be parchased with warranty (3yr unlimited miles) but they will be oem, and there is no fun in that The other work that I will be doing or have the machine shop do will be: -Port & polish (me) kit$50-$80 !!! tools required !!! -3 angle valve job (me) about the same $ as port and polish !!!tools required also!!! -balance rotating assembly (machine shop) ~deck the block or head ~ (machine shop) not sure if this can be done for sure yet. Possible work that will be done if funds become availible will be: 1)a tuned intake that i will make from1-3/4 to 2in DOM tubing (this depends on the amount of efficient porting availible, if any) 2) a pair of small turbos fna!!! 3) forged or billet internals (special order at significant cost I'm sure, don't know yet) 4)100-150hp wet shot 5) and my personal favorite, converting to rwd !!!!!!!!!!!! Based on prices of used/reman engines and machining costs for all of the work mentioned above. I believe that it would be in your best intrest to by a reman engine( no worries of tiered springs cracked/warped heads etc...), a gasket kit, bearing kit and head bolts then have a machine shop balance the engine . Then have the machine shop port&polish and a valve job or if you know how to do a valve job and port&polish then great. Unless ofcourse you find a smok'n' deal on a northstar like i did then you are freed of many monitary burdens imposed by this venture.
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scottydl
Super Moderator
There's nothin' like an American V-8...
Posts: 7,373
Staff Member
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Post by scottydl on Jun 4, 2007 20:05:05 GMT -6
Many have spoken of such a swap, but alas none have completed one (that I know of). Good luck and Godspeed! We'll all be waiting anxiously for the outcome...
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Post by macadamiaman on Jun 4, 2007 20:29:18 GMT -6
4 and 5... good luck... quite the costs, also. You have the funds? With the money, you can do it. Without the money, it'll never happen.
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Post by algonquin on Jun 4, 2007 20:31:01 GMT -6
Sounds like you have the plan laid out pretty well. What is your time estimate start to finish ? What are you planning to do for the RWD conversion ?
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Post by latenight72 on Jun 5, 2007 7:43:13 GMT -6
Deleted, apparently it's too pessimistic...
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Post by Marc on Jun 5, 2007 7:52:29 GMT -6
WillV.......I hope that you can do this. I said here some time ago that if somebody in ACNA makes up their mind that they are going to spend enough time & money on this project, they'll get it done.
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Post by aldrichd on Jun 5, 2007 9:34:38 GMT -6
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Post by WillV on Jun 5, 2007 19:04:55 GMT -6
MIG versus TIG. TIG offers only an appearance that cannot be duplicated by the MIG welder. MIG is an industry standard for fabrication work where: 1) TIG is not required by the racing sanctioning body and 2) the customer does not request it . TIG is a low deposition type of weld (only use the amount of fill rod required) so your welds don't weight near as much resulting in a lighter chassis in the case of chassis fabrication. TIG is not any stronger than MIG. The reason some racing sanctioning bodies require TIG is because you don't finish TIG welds, so it becomes very clear whether or not the vehicle going through the tech inspection is track worthy/safe or not. Realistically TIG may very well be less strong than MIG (unfinished) because TIG welding is a hotter process than MIG. This leads to a larger heat effect zone. If the weld is done properly, then tested to fatigue/failure the metal will break in the heat effect zone or the largest/greatest stress riser. For the most part TIG offers only an aesthetic value not a strength improvement. As for the heads and the valve job i just so happen to have the machine in my toy box next to the Tonka dump truck !!! No really the equipment ( not $5000 ) is readily available to me and will be used to do the valves for the northstar that is going into the FWD setup I am working on.
As for the rest of your pessimistic views shared , they all deal with projects that are not anywhere close to being considered currently. As I stated those are future projects, but out of boredom I will oblige.
Forged or billet internals are designed to handle the increased cylinder pressures from increase CR or boost. Without lowering my compression and the right internals (still way in the future) will be more than adequate to handle the 12-18lbs of boost and 9.5-11:1 CR i plan on having. Most reputable after market engine parts manufacturers will make cranks, rods, cams and pistons to requested dimensions at little to no extra cost, if you are buying the high strength materials. This is because they are usually made to order anyway hence the $800-$2000 dollars for a set of billet JE pistons. But sometimes you order a set of pistons or rods or a cam/cams or a crank that are common enough that they don't have to change a bunch of things on the machining equipment therefore you don't have to pay extra for the time spent changing the tooling on the milling machines. I will likely run my Aurora cams on the northstar engine, the lift and duration will make for significant power gains on the larger 4.6.
Turbos do not require less compression to operate, diesels are almost all turbo-ed and usually have compression ratios around 14-18:1. the reason most OEM cars have lower compression ratios with forced induction is for reliability/drive-ability also they can use 90-92 octane gas and not have detonation.
The amount the CR will increase by decking the block or milling the heads cannot be determined without knowing how much you are shrinking the combustion chamber volume. I will not know if I can deck the block or mill the heads until I put shims in place of the head gasket to simulate the new head/deck. From there I will be able to determine how much that effects timing and if there will be pistons and vales hitting. Since the northstar is already an interference engine there isn't much room to play with.
The rear suspension will likely be off of a C5-C6 vette.
The future engine will not likely have anywhere near the stock northstars (there are 2 different northstar cam profiles) or the stock aurora cam profile.
DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubing is used for chassis as well as HREW (hot rolled electric welded). But DOM has a consistent enough inner diameter to be used for the intake. It will also be easier to use and cheaper than stainless or aluminum.
I think that about gives an answer to all of your posted thoughts latenight72.
Thank you all for your thoughts concerns and wishes. Will V.
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Post by latenight72 on Jun 5, 2007 20:00:19 GMT -6
Whoa... Calm down... I am only offering my experience, opinion, and knowledge. Apparently you know exactly what you're doing, so I will leave it at that and wish you luck. A quick question & comment, if you don't mind? First, Diesel and Gasoline engines are NOTHING a like. Second, What type of engine control/management do you plan on running? A custom stand alone unit? There are NO performance modules that are currently offered for the Northstar/Aurora engine. All this hard work will be basically limited by the lack of a decent PCM/ECU.
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Post by Aurora40 on Jun 5, 2007 20:02:24 GMT -6
As for the rest of your pessimistic views shared Just for some perspective, it seems like every other day someone joins up, posts about how they are gonna drop a 4.6L in their car, convert it to RWD, twin turbo it, or do some other crazy mod. Then they just fade away... If you're really going to do them, best of luck and I'd certainly love to see your progress.
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Post by 95mushroom on Jun 5, 2007 22:35:16 GMT -6
I think the point of Lateknight's post, was that you must look down the road when you plan a project this big and has this many potential bumps in the road. For instance, if you were to spend $$ for that valve job and custom cams, then realize that there's no stand-alone ECU for it. I'm not saying it is necessary true, just pointing out one case that could happen. As Aurora40 said, this has happened exactly the same way before, so we're definitely a bit weary. It sounds like you've made some progress so far, and we'd love to see it. Todd, FYI for the future, don't delete your old posts. If it's inappropriate, staff will correct it, otherwise its really just confuses the thread for others.
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Post by latenight72 on Jun 6, 2007 8:52:48 GMT -6
I think the point of Lateknight's post, was that you must look down the road when you plan a project this big and has this many potential bumps in the road. For instance, if you were to spend $$ for that valve job and custom cams, then realize that there's no stand-alone ECU for it. I'm not saying it is necessary true, just pointing out one case that could happen. As Aurora40 said, this has happened exactly the same way before, so we're definitely a bit weary. It sounds like you've made some progress so far, and we'd love to see it. Todd, FYI for the future, don't delete your old posts. If it's inappropriate, staff will correct it, otherwise its really just confuses the thread for others. It kind of sounds like someone wanted to read what was posted. ;D Anyhow, it was not meant as a "bring-down" type post, I was simply trying to point a few things out. It was apparently a pessimistic view, which I do not support, so I opted to remove it, in favor of keeping the peace. BTW- it is Late Night not Late Knight..
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Post by macadamiaman on Jun 6, 2007 10:46:01 GMT -6
WillV, if you get so discouraged by just these comments, just wait until you start on the electrics of these cars...
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Post by Marc on Jun 6, 2007 13:29:14 GMT -6
WillV, if you get so discouraged by just these comments, just wait until you start on the electrics of these cars... That's the big stumbling block.
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Post by WillV on Jun 6, 2007 14:20:37 GMT -6
I think the point of Lateknight's post, was that you must look down the road when you plan a project this big and has this many potential bumps in the road. For instance, if you were to spend $$ for that valve job and custom cams, then realize that there's no stand-alone ECU for it. I'm not saying it is necessary true, just pointing out one case that could happen. I have looked down the road. There are no problems that I see except a nearly empty pocket book!
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Post by WillV on Jun 6, 2007 14:21:50 GMT -6
The electronics of these cars aren't that alien to me, so should you have any questions send them directly to me on the site and I will answer them.
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Post by WillV on Jun 6, 2007 14:26:23 GMT -6
No hard feelings Latenight72!! I completely understand where you are coming from. Also research the Fast stand alone systems. You will find that they are not geared for specific vehicles. They are actually designed to be put on what ever your heart desires. You are correct about diesels and gasoline engines to some degree, but the same things happen when the engine blows. They have the same function from their rotating assembly and heads, it just happens that diesels are stock for stock more stout than a gasoline engines!!!
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Post by latenight72 on Jun 6, 2007 14:41:30 GMT -6
Let's call a truce. Fast units are nice. The only real problem I see is integrating the body electronics from the stock aurora, ie; dashboard, DIC, etc. to be able to work with the Fast unit, if you plan to go that route. If not, it should be a cake-walk. If plans come together, I will be running the FAST XFI in my 'Velle on the ZO6 LS6 I am planning. If you get this done, you will be a first. Like Aurora40 said, there are a lot of people who have "talked" big about doing the conversion, but faded away rather quickly.
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Post by WillV on Jun 14, 2007 18:38:28 GMT -6
And so it begins... (the 4.0 to 4.6 transformation) engine disassembled heads disassembled valve stem seals:$108@ 6 new valves (4 exhaust @ $14 ea.) (2 intake, one of which is my fault @ $11 ea.) heads currently being cleaned. will begin port and polish and 3 angle Friday will cut valves on Monday and re-assemble block inspection to come. wanted to make sure heads were good and ready to go b4 i continued with the rotating assembly. sorry no pics guys. FYI: There are several valve sizes and combos listed for Northstar engines. The size/combos changed during the years and hp upgrades and changes. mine are 1.308" intake and I can't remember my exhaust size right now, .83" something I think. cams may be interchangeable between 4.0 and 4.6, still have to do all of the measuring, spring compressed heights aren't the same for the various nstar and rora engines but the spec ranges overlap to some degree.
Also will try to flow the heads in the next few days to see the cfm b4 and after valve job and post these numbers for you theory guys to make a few fun guesses on actual power possible from the nearly stock 4.6 nstar rebuild.
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Post by algonquin on Jun 14, 2007 22:00:20 GMT -6
The flow numbers will be very interesting. Anybody know the flow for a stock 4.0 head ?
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Post by macadamiaman on Jun 14, 2007 22:38:02 GMT -6
Awesome dude. Take pics on the way!
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Post by JimW on Jun 15, 2007 6:37:50 GMT -6
/\ agreed, this will be a first for ACNA if it goes through
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Post by 95mushroom on Jun 15, 2007 8:17:49 GMT -6
Awesome dude. Take pics on the way! Ditto, can't wait to see some pics. Good luck with everything!
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Post by aurorabrain on Jun 15, 2007 11:45:25 GMT -6
INFO: 93-99 4.6(Y) and 4.0 (C) have the same intake and exhaust cams. 93-99 4.6(9) and 4.0(C) have the same exhaust cams. So all northstars have the same exhaust cams. Basically the only cam difference is the 300hp 4.6, and the difference is the intake cam. ALL the valve springs 93-99 are the same on all the northstars.
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Post by Marc on Jun 15, 2007 13:09:28 GMT -6
As a point of interest, the 4.0 used the 300 HP 4.6 camshaft when the 4.0 was used in the Shelby Series I.
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Post by WillV on Jul 15, 2007 13:41:51 GMT -6
It's been a while , i know but I've busy. Any way. Flow numbers are, 252 cfm @ .335 lft intake and 176 cfm @.335 lft exhaust (not ported&polished numbers). I haven't finished the port and polish yet , and time is so limited. But when it is done I'll cut the seats and reflow and we'll see. In the mean time drive safe and be good to rora.
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Post by Speed Neon on Jul 16, 2007 9:26:38 GMT -6
i agree with the big talk no action. i am waiting to see the action. start the action and all nay-sayers will be silenced.
as a professional tech i have heard all types of big engine talk. LS this and that, turbo this and that, super this and that. and after building my 2.4 turbo neon, i know that modifying a car is a very complex undertaking. its was easy to stuff the SRT4 internalled 2.4 motor in the car. but when you start breaking stuff, stuff that usually never breaks stock. you realize how much time went into building even a cheap econobox to be reliable every day.
its those million mile test runs, and abuse sessions that ready a car for daily use.
i admire your zeal, even your tech talk. but until you drive it everyday and smile when it gobbles up the road, and than cry when it suffers driveabilty problems or mechanical malfunction and failure. all your talk is just that. it took me 2 years of smiles and cries to get my neon right, a simple econobox. with all the systems on the rora, i can only imagine how long it will take to iron out the bugs.
and i honestly believe that to call this swap sucessful everything, and i mean everything must work as intended. this is a luxury car. and i am sorry but a non-functioning system or a lit indicator light is unacceptable. i want my DIC working. A/C ice cold. ABS working. a ride to accompany all this new found power, as power is nothing without control. i want to toss the keys to my ol' lady and not have to sweat about a thing. i want a turn key rora, as if GM made it that way, as the case with the aurorabrain brake upgrade. unchanged pedal feel, same ease of modulation, just alot more braking power when you want it.
achieve those results and others will follow. i know i have built a total of 3 SRT4 powered neons, for other neon.org members.
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Post by aurorabrain on Jul 16, 2007 10:24:48 GMT -6
The big problem that i know of is changing the PCM to eliminate torque management. Where can we find a PCM or tuning software for these cars? Short from running an aftermarket engine controller i don't know of anything else. The PCM will be seeing way more power than it's used to and will back off timing and/or injectors if you start hammering on it. I personally had this problem with an Aurora that had p&p heads and it was the stock engine. There was too much power on the 1-2 shift and it would kill the engine for a sec.
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Post by Marc on Jul 16, 2007 18:32:30 GMT -6
The big problem that i know of is changing the PCM to eliminate torque management. Where can we find a PCM or tuning software for these cars? Short from running an aftermarket engine controller i don't know of anything else. Maybe if someone here asks GM nicely enough & pays them a few bucks, they'd be able to get that info from GM.
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Post by latenight72 on Jul 16, 2007 22:15:36 GMT -6
If anyone wants the email of a Sr. Project Engineer for General Motors Powertrain, let me know, maybe you can bug him for a while, see if he can help you out at all...
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