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Post by intheb0x on Jan 18, 2009 21:46:07 GMT -6
i got a bottle of injector cleaner or something like that in the car now i have not put in there, its penzoil fuel injector cleaner or something should i put it in?
i think i should start with getting the gas out of there, i bought a pump today
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Post by robaurora01 on Jan 18, 2009 22:55:00 GMT -6
get the gas out, put new gas in along with that cleaner and see how she is
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 18, 2009 23:39:40 GMT -6
ok will do as the first thing
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 19, 2009 1:37:33 GMT -6
ok drained the gas as best i could with afluid pump from autozone, it filled up a thing of windhshield washer fluid and a half, started the car up, says low fuel range when before it was easily at 90 miles range, i couldnt get anymore from the pump, so im going to the gas station in my other car to fill up a little can with some premium then im going to see how it runs with that gas and the injector cleaner.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 19, 2009 2:47:02 GMT -6
Just a update, after draining every thing i could suck out, i took my neon to the gas station, got a 2 gallon gas can and filled it with premium, got home, poured in half a bottle of the fuel injector cleaner, poured in the gas, started her up, all seems well, running fine, engine light not flashing but on steady, i let it warm up and drove her about 3-4 miles to the gas station, no issue what so ever, put in about 10 bucks premium, then poured the rest of the injector cleaner in. drove her home, ran like normal.. CAT WAS NOT GLOWING RED...
so im thinking this is what happened bad gas made the car misfire and throw code P0300, when the car would misfire and run rough the engine light would flash, thus telling me according to marc that the cat is being damaged, by looking underneath and seeing it glowing red that proves what i think is the car running really rich and destroying the cat making it get really really hot.
i am going to take it to work tomarrow and keep driving it and see if the symptoms return. thanks for the help and input, hopefully people will see this if there car is having the same problems due to bad gas and not shell out over a thousand to get there car fix with starting with the misfire code by replacing the coil packs,plugs,and cat converter only after doing all this the problem would remain, atleast until the gas is run out, now im not 100% sure if its gone but im thinking it is.
-fingers crossed-
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Post by robaurora01 on Jan 19, 2009 9:15:00 GMT -6
update us asap
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Post by alan442 on Jan 19, 2009 12:16:35 GMT -6
My brother-in-law just had a similar problem with his daughter's '03 Mazda 6 with about 115K on the clock. Driving home one day it just started running crappy. She was still about 75 miles away but made it home. When she got there the car was sputtering badly and the cat glowed red. Local and trusted repair shop identified the problem as a failed coil pack which caused unburned fuel to pass into the exhaust then clog up the cat. Problem with the Mazda is it apparently has 2 cats, one of which is built into the exhaust system as a single unit so you can't just replace the cats but instead have to replace most of the exhaust system also. And those parts are seriously expensive. Price for parts and labor, including replacing all coil packs, was $3600. Dealer wanted just under $5k! Almost makes the car worthless but she decided to get the work done since the car otherwise is still pretty solid. So, yeah, misfiring or bad coil packs can cause the behavior you experienced.
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Post by aurora2001tan on Jan 19, 2009 18:00:30 GMT -6
Bad gas causes a RETARD condition. The explosion happens late and unburned fuel and the heat, flame and explosion goes out the exh valve. Do this for long and you can burn your valves up. Not a pretty picture. you should be ok though.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 19, 2009 20:51:17 GMT -6
OK, UPDATE,
after a smooth drive to work this morning i decided to take a longer ride to a local fish store with a friend to know for sure if the problem went away, the trip is about 10 miles away, so the way there the aurora ran like a dream, the check engine light went off, got to the fish store was inside for about a half hour, came out started the car, walla SAME PROBLEM, rough idle, then engine light flashing.
my friend took me in his car to autozone, talked to the guy there ( they dont know everything but it helps to ask)
he basically told me that he thinks its the CAT, but im stuck and do not know where to go
for shits and giggles i bought 8 ac delco platinum plugs, i have not installed them yet.
im afraid that if i install them and lets say its a coil pack thats bad it might foul up the new plugs, make sense?
so im stuck here, its obviously not bad gas so its either, CLOGGED CAT, OR fouled plug, OR bad coil pack..
what should i do next???
cheapest cat that autozone sells is a magnaflow direct fit, 234$ coil packs, the fronts 156$ the rear coil pack 186$. the plugs costed me 48$
HELP PLEASE, im stuck,
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Post by robaurora01 on Jan 19, 2009 21:24:34 GMT -6
I hate to say it but the dealership has a computer if you hook it up (expensive computer btw) it will literally tell you whats going on and which specific part it is. last I checked $100 minimum to use this computer but seeing as your having this issue and its possibly best to do it this way then your not wasting money on nothing I actually suggest the dealer for once.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 19, 2009 21:36:10 GMT -6
i do have access to a pretty good dealer that has a decent labor rate, i have had them do a few things to the aurora before such as ISS, wheel bearings, brakes and so on, so i guess off to the dealer she goes...
they also installed my own parts, unlike some dealers who will not install customers parts. so whatever they find is wrong i can have them install without paying there high part prices.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 20, 2009 0:02:21 GMT -6
i was thinking, once its in the dealer i should get the fuel filter replaced while im at it, im curious if i should get a WIX brand fuel filter or just a AC delco??
also
from my observation, when the car is cold and has not run for a while it runs fine, i just went outside and started it and it ran perfect, im going to take it to work tomarrow and see if it messes up on the way there, from what i can tell it only messes up on drives 10 miles or longer, anything shorter is fine, my work is close.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 20, 2009 11:03:14 GMT -6
Ok well another update lol,
She rode to work fine, I'm sure she will go home fine too, so short distances are ok, I'm still stuck on this and cannot get it into the dealer till Saturday.
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Post by alan442 on Jan 20, 2009 12:04:34 GMT -6
I bet when you get the codes scanned you will find a series of codes, the first of which (really the last one generated) will probably point to the catalytic converter. The codes which display after that (were generated first) are the ones that you want to pay attention to as they should indicate the cause of the subsequent codes. I verified this with my regular mechanic. He also stated that, as in my brother-in-law's case, those other codes will identify the reason why unburned fuel was getting to the cat. Also, in addition to probably having to replace the cat you will probably also need to replace O2 sensors on the exhaust side in addition to whatever needs replacing on the intake side, such as coil packs or fuel injector or something. So read those other codes and follow the trail to the source of the problem. Both my bro-in-law (a very good back yard mechanic in his own right) and my regular mechanic agree on this. Good luck.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 20, 2009 15:12:31 GMT -6
Anyone think I should change the plugs on my own or atleast pull em to see how they look before going to the dealer?
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Post by robaurora01 on Jan 20, 2009 17:39:52 GMT -6
try pulling one if you really want it, its 10 mins of work that wouldn't hurt but I still say your gonna have to go to the dealer and they will need to take it for a test drive with the computer plugged in at the time to get the codes
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 20, 2009 19:33:45 GMT -6
well i drove home tonight from work and had no problems, check engine light went off again, the trip is about 4 miles and i let her run for a additional 5 mins no problems
im getting so many mixed ideas on what it is, i dont know where to start, im afriad if i took it to the dealer they would replace something other then the problem.
a few people have said it was the CAT, but the cat does not start burning red until the car itself starts misfiring, then i think its running really rich or the misfire is causing it to dump all the excess fuel down the exhaust, thus making it glow red, i get crappy mpg when this happens around 11mpg.
some have said its the spark plugs, but then again heres the argument about why doesnt it happen ALL the time versus a long trip or a long time running.
same goes with the coil packs, ok could be BUT why isnt it happening ALL the time versus after long trips or long engine running.
and we all know its not bad gas lol
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BNICOV
Aurora Lover
Posts: 782
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Post by BNICOV on Jan 20, 2009 20:37:32 GMT -6
I'd probably say it's your cat going bad being the most likely culprit, way back when, my old '87 Firebird started to run like kaka when hot and the problem got progressively worse until it barely ran at all, the cat was plugged. Please note, this is a serious fire hazard!! Second most likely culprit, a bad coil pack. I'd get the car scanned, if it's a misfire problem, there will be a history in the computer with the cylinder #. Good Luck!!
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Post by aurora2001tan on Jan 20, 2009 21:20:47 GMT -6
CAT doesnt make backfire. Got to look for root cause. Its a computer that need diagnosed with a COMPUTER. Or we can just guess, and isnt that fun lol
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 20, 2009 21:28:54 GMT -6
it was not backfiring. im afraid if i spent the money on the coil packs then it was the cat all along im afraid if i spent the money on a magnaflow high flow cat and paid to get it installed and it just fried all over again then i would be out of alot of cash
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Post by oldwino on Jan 20, 2009 22:05:01 GMT -6
My 2 cents;
If you're not having the problem on short trips, but only on longer ones and it's fine when cold, then it seems to me to be heat related. The longer it runs, the hotter it gets. Electrical/electronic components can have issues due to heat. I'd check the connectors to the coil packs. Remove them, inspect/check for any signs of arcing/corrosion, clean with electrical cleaner and make sure they're dry before reconnecting. The same with the injector connectors. I would think the catconverter issue is a symptom, rather than the cause of your problems.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 20, 2009 22:15:37 GMT -6
well the thing is, yes it has to do something with heat or how hot its getting but after a 4mile trip home its easily at its halfway mark on the temp gauge and its blowing hot heat and not doing this as soon as it gets hot, it takes a while but i will do what you suggested.
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Post by oldwino on Jan 21, 2009 3:46:06 GMT -6
Yes the engine temp is up, but whatever is causing the issues may not have reached the point of failure. Parts external to the engine will need to soak for a period of time before they reach the same temp as the engine coolant. Hope that I'm able to help.
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Post by rocketman on Jan 21, 2009 11:40:54 GMT -6
I'm not buying the bad gas issue as the sole cause(although it could be). I believe there is more...............gotta think a bit...........
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Post by rocketman on Jan 21, 2009 13:35:29 GMT -6
OK.
First off, an injector cleaner is different from dry gas. Dry gas would address water in the fuel and the cleaner would not. Has dry gas been tried?
Second, bang on the converter and see if it rattles. If yes, it's bad, if not move on. Have you had someone step on the gas while you are at the end of exhaust to see if it "apperas" there may be a partial restriction. Go to the Neon to see how it should react if need be.
If a car stumbles after it gets hot, I'd go with the cat or a bad coil. As coils heat up, the wires do too and that is what makes a coil act up. I would use a digital voltmeter (yes, my favorite tool from previous threads) and do a resistance test on primary and secondary circuits (look at Autozone's site if you need to find out how to do this). A real (like the GM techs do) scanner would tell you which cylinder is acting up if you could get to one.
It could be a combination of issues but I would proceed in the order above.
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Post by oldwino on Jan 21, 2009 15:23:17 GMT -6
^^ If you do a resistance check, you want to do it cold and compare it to a hot reading. Also keep in mind that an insulation breakdown(most likely coil issue) may not always show up with a voltmeter. A VOM is a low voltage measuring device and a useful tool, but the problem may only occur at higher voltages. Thus the reason for a megger, but I wouldn't recommend using one on an auto.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 21, 2009 19:45:20 GMT -6
im pretty sure its NOT a bad gas issue, question here, if the cat was bad, why would it only mess up when the car got hot and not when its cold?
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Post by rocketman on Jan 21, 2009 20:05:49 GMT -6
Only have one logical reason - expansion of the innards.
I believe you really have an electrical (ignition) problem that is causing the cat to glow and eventually the O2 sensor will act up too.
Like was said earlier - the glowing cat is a symptom not the cause.
Sounds stupid but did you check to see if some shoved something up the tailpipe as a prank?
If you have trouble going up steep hills then a cat is suspect. If not, move on to electrical. It might be easier to check the coils cold and then put them in the oven for a tiny bit to heat and test again. It's gotta beat working on a hot motor. I never did this however.......
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Post by Aurora40 on Jan 21, 2009 21:15:52 GMT -6
It seems hard to imagine bad gas causing the cat to run hot. If the gas is "bad" enough not to combust in the chamber, I wouldn't think it would combust in the catalytic converter either. But I dunno. If the car is misfireing due to spark or leanness, then I could see that heating the cat up as it tries to burn up the unburned hydrocarbons.
To check for a clogged cat, I have heard you can use an infrared temp gauge. If the front of the cat is significantly hotter than the rear of the cat, it is probably clogged. You can buy those temp gauge guns fairly cheaply now, so it may be worth a shot.
Also you could pull plugs and look at them to see if one or more look like they ran extremely lean or rich.
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Post by intheb0x on Jan 21, 2009 21:19:12 GMT -6
lol the oven sounds like a good idea, but i wouldnt want to mess anything up more, what temp to heat the oven and how long to put em in?
my mufflers are clear, imsure after this fiascal ill have to replace my 02 sensor to acheive regular mpg.
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